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Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

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Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#191

Post by turtlebits »

briffle wrote: post #158
czbond wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New to heat pumps. Can I replace sub-components of an existing AC system with a heat pump for benefits of both?

I'd be very interested as well. My gas furnace is only a few years old, but my AC system is probably 10 years old. If I could replace just that with a heat pump, and leave my gas furnace in place as a backup, that would be ideal.

You can install non ducted mini splits, which is what I did.

I left my oil furnace intact and added 4 high wall units (each bedroom and living room) with 2 outdoor condenser/compressors.

I still use my oil furnace when it gets below 40.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#192

Post by crftr »

Detrytus wrote: post #121
herpdyderp wrote: post #5

The states listed are: - California - Colorado - Maine - Maryland - Massachusetts - New Jersey - New York - Oregon - Rhode Island

Why would anyone need a heat pump in California, given the climate there? I can understand north-eastern states, but not this. Is it a case of mindlessly jumping on "progressive" bandwagon? EDIT: I actually spent one winter in San Diego, and apartments there don't even have any heating installed (except occasional fireplace in the living room). I know that more to the north it might get worse, but by how much?

I live in San Diego and energy prices are relatively expensive. We installed solar two years ago and routinely overproduce 3+ MWh.

Now, with a heat pump, the wife and kids can set the thermostat for their comfort and I am less anxious about the monthly bill. The freedom was worth it, for us.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#193

Post by GloriousKoji »

burkaman wrote: post #144
nostrademons wrote: post #92

These states really need to get their electric rates down if they want to accelerate adoption of electrification technologies. We were planning to fully electrify our house + transportation in the next few years. PG&E rate hikes and net metering policies put the damper on that. It's now more expensive to fuel a vehicle with electricity than gas, so I'm charging my PHEV at work and using gas for the rest. We have sola…

> It's now more expensive to fuel a vehicle with electricity than gas This is very hard to believe, what are you paying for electricity? California gas prices are also way above the national average at the moment. Here's a per-state comparison from last year, I'm sure it's a bit out of date but I doubt things have completed flipped in a single year: https://energyinnovation.org/2023/07/27/ev-fill-up-savings/

I live in the Bay Area California and get electricity from PG&E. I use a minimal amount of electricity and I paid 43 cents/kWh last month. Gas from Costco is $4/gal right now. I have a plugin-hybrid which does 4miles/kwh and 45mpg or in terms of money: 9.3miles/$ on electricity and 11.25gas-miles/$ on gasoline.

But maybe you don't actually care about fuel efficiency, then you have an argument that it's cheaper to fuel a Tesla Model 3 instead of a BMW M3.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#194

Post by peteradio »

nostromo wrote: post #172
cyberax wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we ever have to replace it, we're going to have to rip open half of the house to remove the heating lines. It'll be a nightmare. Why? Assuming you have a split unit, the lines are just copper pipes and will work with any other heatpump.

Potentially, yes. But when we asked about this we were told that not all heat pumps and head units are compatible -- so we seem to be locked in based on brand, model, and refrigerant type.

I think people may be aware of your price insensitivity.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#195

Post by jmtulloss »

nostromo wrote: post #172
cyberax wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we ever have to replace it, we're going to have to rip open half of the house to remove the heating lines. It'll be a nightmare. Why? Assuming you have a split unit, the lines are just copper pipes and will work with any other heatpump.

Potentially, yes. But when we asked about this we were told that not all heat pumps and head units are compatible -- so we seem to be locked in based on brand, model, and refrigerant type.

FWIW there are different sizes but they are standardized and you can adapt most sizes to each other (although on the compressor side you only would want to size down). If you ever need to replace it you'll need to be careful with the line sizes but you should be able to find a compatible unit to your existing install.

Controllers, otoh, are a different story. You will probably need to replace your head units if you also replace the compressor with a different brand. Same story with being careful about line size.

Refrigerant isn't a big deal as you'll need to flush it and repressurize anyway if you replace these parts.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#196

Post by lotsofpulp »

dhosek wrote: post #184
lotsofpulp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the redundancy of natural gas. So far, in less than 40 years, I have been kept warm for multiple days on 3 separate occasions by having access to gas while the electricity did not work. Also, I was able to keep cooking. One of the states in the article is Oregon too, where I have family that just a few weeks ago lost electricity for 4 days, but were able to use an electric generator to keep the air handler goi…

My ex-wife had a two-day power outage last month (it was only a few hours at my apartment) during a cold snap. She has gas heat, but the problem is that the heat gets circulated by fans¹ which are powered by— electricity . She had to get a hotel room for the night because she wasn’t comfortable sleeping with the gas fireplace on. ⸻ 1. I would guess that thermostats also powered by electricity not working would add to…

Of course, but gas utility supply means a much smaller generator is needed just to operate the fans and thermostat and much less on-hand fuel is needed to operate the generator.

Natural gas is just a very convenient and very dense source of energy when you need it most.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#197

Post by CharlieDigital »

ajross wrote: post #157
epistasis wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your experience is extremely common. Residential HVAC contractors tend to be extremely conservative, and don't adopt new technologies quickly, or even attempt to understand them. I had some flexibility in time in replacing my 50 year old gas furnace, so I was able to call about 8 contractors before I finally found one who was comfortable with the tech and wanted to do it.

Yeah, it's not an innovative sector, though a lot of the blame belongs with the hardware manufacturers and not the installers. FWIW, the quotes I got for installation weren't that awful. But getting it hooked up to the Nest thermostat turned out to be a 2-day process and require a subcontractor to show up.

Probably a bit more nuanced than that.

A lot of the installers run small businesses. If one of these units goes wrong or if they do the install wrong because it's new to them, then that's lost time and lost revenue rectifying it.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#198

Post by lex-lightning »

mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Alright, maybe I’m out of touch, but I don’t think electricity is expensive in California.

Even during 115 degree heatwaves in a 70-year-old, 3-bedroom, single-family home. Most I paid was $100 in a month with 2 people with gaming computers working from home.

Not everyone has that kind of money, but my point is that most people have cell service and other services which add up to more than electricity costs.

That’s fine, I make no judgement of what people spend. I’m just setting a comparison. For how much value electricity provides us and how much we use it, I wouldn’t call it expensive, even in California.

YMMV by city, but it wasn’t an issue in Sacramento. The real monster is climate change, and so here we have a chicken-and-egg problem combined with wealth disparity.

I think we need comprehensive social program packages to address this.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#199

Post by acdha »

Detrytus wrote: post #121
herpdyderp wrote: post #5

The states listed are: - California - Colorado - Maine - Maryland - Massachusetts - New Jersey - New York - Oregon - Rhode Island

Why would anyone need a heat pump in California, given the climate there? I can understand north-eastern states, but not this. Is it a case of mindlessly jumping on "progressive" bandwagon? EDIT: I actually spent one winter in San Diego, and apartments there don't even have any heating installed (except occasional fireplace in the living room). I know that more to the north it might get worse, but by how much?

Ever wonder why it’s called a “heat pump” rather than a heater? It’s because they work in both directions, and that means that you can have the system which keeps you cool in the summer also keep you warm in the winter rather than having a separate system. This is especially nice because if you don’t use a heater much, you don’t know that it’ll work when you need it: where I lived in San Diego, the condo complex had radiant heat in the floor in every unit but once in a decade a cold snap meant people really needed it … and some of my neighbors learned theirs no longer worked.

The efficiency wins from a better quality system are nice, too. I live on the east coast now and went all electric a few years back. Our energy costs in the winter went up modestly - not much because heat pumps are great on all of the not incredibly cold winter days we get in the mid-Atlantic - but the savings in the summer versus the cheap AC the previous owner had purchased were substantial. The savings up front for a less efficient unit get eaten up pretty quickly if you use it regularly.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#200

Post by turtlebits »

yellow_postit wrote: post #102

moved from oil furnace to heat pump in Seattle (with electric strip backup) Seems like a perfect fit for our weather patterns but was definitely not the most economical option as it kicked off a domino effect of upgrades I wasn't missing before. Its no where near as "cozy" as the oil heat was, and the temperature of airing coming from the vents is significantly lower than the oil system. So the domino of upgrades is…

In Seattle as well. I kept my oil furnace and added mini splits to each room.

What helped the most for my old house was attic insulation. I spent around $700 to buy blown-in packs (and got free machine rental) and got my attic to around R-40. I'm able to set my thermostat 5 degrees higher without any change to my energy bill.

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