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Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

research.mozilla.org

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Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#191

Post by CatWChainsaw »

pyrophane wrote: post #180

I've been trying Edge lately because I wanted to see if its "efficiency mode" would produce any noticeable difference in the battery life I experienced on my laptop. They've really made it almost impossible to use as a privacy-respecting browser that lets you pick your search engine. There are a very large number of "on by default" settings that I had to change to turn of things like "Microsoft Rewards" and "creator…

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the settings "accidentally" get reversed after the browser updates, since it's been known to happen with Windows settings...

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#192

Post by deadlydose »

6c696e7578 wrote: post #171
user234683 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rarely get focus stolen on Windows 10. They now make it very difficult for applications to do this (see the allowed conditions here: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winuser/... ). In contrast, focus stealing is a way of life on XFCE, and I just have to put up with it. The settings they recommend to fix it don't actually help.

Really? There's two programs I know of that will take focus and they're both authentication prompts. The sort of thing that cranks my handle on Windows were mostly from the browser and almost anything else. With XFCE though, I'm quite happy with the level of focus stealing, things that seem to be justifiable are at the right level, like authentication prompts. Out of interest, what are the things that take focus for…

Long time XFCE user here. Steam will absolutely steal focus. I usually start Steam and then move over to something else like the terminal or web browser and multiple times during Steam's startup it will steal focus. I just want it to start up in the background. Aside from that, I agree focus stealing isn't a huge deal in XFCE. (XFCE 4.18, Debian trixie/testing)

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#193

Post by yakz »

RajT88 wrote: post #174
bmitc wrote: post #173

What's sad is that it's a good browser behind all of this. But it takes a fair amount of work getting all the settings right to turn it all off.

Agreed. One of the most egregious things is the insistence on using the Bing start page. You have to install an extension to have your own start page (in fairness most browsers are like this these days). However, lately Edge just magically stopped letting new tab redirect work. At least it loads a blank page, but it is annoying. Microsoft seems hell bent on preventing user control all over their client ecosystem. The…

setting it to load about:blank seems to kinda work

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#194

Post by oneplane »

We need at least three parties with different browser engines with all of them at least having double digits percentage user share to prevent another IE5/IE6 mess. It doesn't even have to be on the same platform, one platform with one engine also works, as long as there are other platforms with other engines.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#195

Post by pyrophane »

CatWChainsaw wrote: post #191
pyrophane wrote: post #180

I've been trying Edge lately because I wanted to see if its "efficiency mode" would produce any noticeable difference in the battery life I experienced on my laptop. They've really made it almost impossible to use as a privacy-respecting browser that lets you pick your search engine. There are a very large number of "on by default" settings that I had to change to turn of things like "Microsoft Rewards" and "creator…

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the settings "accidentally" get reversed after the browser updates, since it's been known to happen with Windows settings...

I do think that happened to me at least once. I was happily using Kagi as my default search engine, and then after a restart suddenly I was using Bing.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#196

Post by shon »

I used to despise Microsoft for exactly this behavior. I’ve been more impressed with them lately for their investment in AI and willingness to take risks bringing new products to market.

Unfortunately I’ve had the same problem with Edge after refusing to use any M$ browser for decades, I gave it a try to get early access to “Sydney” which was worth it all until they lobotomized it.

Microsoft at its best, gave us the Xbox by abandoning Windows and focusing on making a good product regardless of ecosystem ties (and using its enormous money/muscle).

Microsoft at it’s worst uses deceptive lock-in tactics on its own users and is still not above force-feeding: “if you want to use this product, you HAVE to use these other crappy products you don’t want.”

This is so strange to me for a company that has worked so hard to transform.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#197

Post by djfdat »

pyrophane wrote: post #181
bmitc wrote: post #173

What's sad is that it's a good browser behind all of this. But it takes a fair amount of work getting all the settings right to turn it all off.

What makes Edge a good browser among the several other Chrome-based browsers out there?

Workspaces is the first instance of synced tabs in a browser that actually works for me.

A lot of nice features are included in the browser, that maybe they are in other browsers now, but that hasn't always been the case. I was a Vivaldi user prior to switching to Edge, but here are some things I like:

- Tab groups. Vivaldi has this also, and has better tools for collapsing tabs by host - Some of the built-in features are nice. QR code, send to other devices, split view, capture & markup, easier profiles. - Bookmark bar has a per-bookmark option to hide title. Doesn't delete the title, so you can still use it for search. But this makes a really handy app bar. - Probably not true, but I expect it to be better optimized for Windows vs other browsers - Cross-platform w/ workspaces is great. I use a mac for personal and windows for work. Can't use Safari on Windows, and Vivaldi wouldn't sync tabs (at the time) - I expect Microsoft to integrate AI features in early and well, and I want to be on the cutting-edge to see what AI has to offer.

I agree, I hate all the tracking BS also, but I turned a bunch of things off and the rest is probably a wash with everything else tracking me anyways.

I really recommend you fire it up and give it a try. You're sure to be surprised, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

Edit: Feature that I'm missing most from Vivaldi - the speed dial page was just amazing, running through bookmarks. I've mostly supplanted by using the bookmarks bar, but it's still not a perfect replacement for me.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#198

Post by pyrophane »

shon wrote: post #196

I used to despise Microsoft for exactly this behavior. I’ve been more impressed with them lately for their investment in AI and willingness to take risks bringing new products to market. Unfortunately I’ve had the same problem with Edge after refusing to use any M$ browser for decades, I gave it a try to get early access to “Sydney” which was worth it all until they lobotomized it. Microsoft at its best, gave us the…

I think that this sort of behavior is really just in Microsoft's DNA.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#199

Post by notfed »

watters wrote: post #183
malablaster wrote: post #177

Not exactly an impartial source coming from their competitor who is also almost fully funded by their other competitor.

Which specific idea(s) presented do you believe has its merits undermined by this lack of impartiality?

Erm, maybe this idea:

> This report was commissioned by Mozilla

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