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EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

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Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#191

Post by tormeh »

sofixa wrote: post #182
tormeh wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still true. Or, the regulations are at least efficiently enforced in Sweden, unlike in most countries in the EU. Inefficient, corrupt, or arbitrary bureaucracies are surprisingly common.

Do you have any sources or proof of that or are you working back from biases?

There are no "backwards bureaucracy" index, unfortunately, but that's what I hear. Sweden has a smooth system. To be fair, that seems to be common in Scandinavia. Germany is a mess for sure. Have heard nothing good about Spain/Italy. France seems to have a problem with powerful individual bureaucrats. Anyway, if you want something slightly more systematic, look at the Ease of Doing Business rankings, but keep in mind that it's constructed based on how the bureaucracies are supposed to work (legislation, etc.), not the actual experience of those using them.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#192

Post by vdaea »

Log_out_ wrote: post #160
roenxi wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML isn't guarding profound insights revealed by the gods requiring some sort of eternal liver pecking sacrifice to obtain. If the EU plays hardball to too great an extent, other countries will replicate the research. China will already have started their attempts. It isn't crazy to expect them to achieve success single handedly. If all of Asia starts mucking in the EU will get crushed. The EU does not have a track…

China is finished, behind the propaganda poster, have some pity and compassion.

According to some China has been finished for ten years now. When are they going to go bankrupt?

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#193

Post by FirmwareBurner »

seper8 wrote: post #113
georgeecollins wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> locally quite high $80k annual income (STEM PhD, 40yo) I love Europe, both for the lifestyle and the safety net. But the salaries are kind of shocking for an American.

I work at said company with just a bachelors degree and make (way) more than that. I think its mostly PHD's that are paid shit comparatively to the US, lol. I've heard it's because there's little to no competition. If you have PHD's in certain fields, you can either work at ASML here or do something else unrelated to your PHD.

>I work at said company

Which company is that? Parent didn't mention a company.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#194

Post by seper8 »

shiroiuma wrote: post #170
pitkali wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think its mostly PHD's that are paid shit comparatively to the US, lol. No. The salaries at all levels in Europe are lower than in the US, regardless of a few outliers. That part is indisputable.

Both claims can be true (all salaries lower, PhDs paid poorly). I don't have a PhD, but from what I've heard in the US, PhDs are paid pretty poorly there too, compared to their level of education and the level of work they do compared to, for instance, a software engineer with a Bachelor's.

Thats exactly my point

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#195

Post by robertlagrant »

dns_snek wrote: post #162
robertlagrant wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it better (though harder) to have a good environment for building things than to just write protectionist rules?

At what cost? An environment with slave labor would be great if you wanted to have things produced for cheap. Should we allow slave labor to stay competitive? This is a pretty extreme example, but that's what it comes down to. Thanks to the free market, there's always going to be someone willing to do it for cheaper while sacrificing product quality, employee welfare, or environmental impact.

> At what cost?

At the cost of seeing people take advantage of the opportunity to add value for their customers.

> This is a pretty extreme example, but that's what it comes down to

It's not what it comes down to. Someone in the market for the cheapest smartphone possible won't buy a $10 phone even though it's cheaper than the next alternative, because quality also matters. Or at least, value for money matters.

> Thanks to the free market, there's always going to be someone willing to do it for cheaper while sacrificing product quality

Someone might be willing to offer something cheaper, but thanks to the free market, that option will only be popular if people believe it's good value for money and buy it.

> employee welfare

This is mostly a competition issue. If it's too expensive to create employers, there's no competition for workers.

> or environmental impact

This happens in all types of agreements. The limiter on non-free market countries for environmental impact isn't ethics, it's inefficiency. Only regulations can solve this.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#196

Post by seper8 »

londons_explore wrote: post #127
seper8 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. Don't think you have any idea how complex it is to both set up the fabs and run them. Are you gonna fly half of Taiwan to run these fabs here? How long do you think this process is going to take?

Nearly all chip making machines are computer controlled. The operators could easily operate them remotely from Taiwan. Data centers already work that way - the economic value of the physical building is quite small because all the actual moneymaking can be done by an office full of software engineers in san Fransisco.

>The operators could easily operate them remotely from Taiwan.

It's time to stop talking about things you don't know anything about.

Comparing a server to an ASML litography machine...

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#197

Post by leonheld »

hardware2win wrote: post #103
unnouinceput wrote: post #10

This can become very realistic by 2025 even. Just poach the brains at ASML, shower them with money (you know those fucking 50 millions bonuses that shitty CEO's enjoy nowadays), give them free hand for all decisions (both tech creativity and management) and voila! - goal achieved. Doubt will happen since this "goal" smells more like another "it's electoral year, let's make some noise in the press" rather than an actu…

This isnt some 50ppl startup There are long ass supply chains

The software engineers don't realize that cutting-edge integrated hardware is actually harder than typing a bunch of letters into a terminal. lol.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#198

Post by seper8 »

apexalpha wrote: post #123
seper8 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. Don't think you have any idea how complex it is to both set up the fabs and run them. Are you gonna fly half of Taiwan to run these fabs here? How long do you think this process is going to take?

>Don't think you have any idea how complex it is to both set up the fabs and run them. Are you gonna fly half of Taiwan to run these fabs here? How long do you think this process is going to take? I would think this would all happen the same way it would happen if we lured the companies here with €30 billion.

Luring them away is not limiting their ability to sell machines outside of EU, which is what you proposed in your op

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#199

Post by roenxi »

cgeier wrote: post #155
roenxi wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML isn't guarding profound insights revealed by the gods requiring some sort of eternal liver pecking sacrifice to obtain. If the EU plays hardball to too great an extent, other countries will replicate the research. China will already have started their attempts. It isn't crazy to expect them to achieve success single handedly. If all of Asia starts mucking in the EU will get crushed. The EU does not have a track…

> The EU does not have a track record of staying ahead when they tangle with Asians for tech manufacturing supremacy. Depends on your definition of "tech", see e.g. Airbus.

I don't accept that example. The Aerospace industry is dominated by the Americans [0]. Challenging North America is a much harder proposition than challenge the EU. The EU doesn't have a competitive edge in that market and I doubt they'd stand up all that well if challenged, given that they were already challenged and didn't stand up well.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerospace_manufacturer

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#200

Post by chimp_brain »

Log_out_ wrote: post #160
roenxi wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML isn't guarding profound insights revealed by the gods requiring some sort of eternal liver pecking sacrifice to obtain. If the EU plays hardball to too great an extent, other countries will replicate the research. China will already have started their attempts. It isn't crazy to expect them to achieve success single handedly. If all of Asia starts mucking in the EU will get crushed. The EU does not have a track…

China is finished, behind the propaganda poster, have some pity and compassion.

I don't think China is doing as well as many Chinese might believe but this doom of China is predicted every other year. Chinese companies are making strides in battery tech ( CATL ) and robotics ( DJI, Siasun )
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