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The rise of batteries in six charts

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Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#191
post #182

Given these trends, what is the predicted year that we'd expect the last fossil fuel burning power plant to be greenlit for construction in China, India, and the US? Follow-up: At what point is continued operation of existing coal become uneconomical (to simplify the question assume decent solar generation locations are available/ grid connected nearby).

Fossil fuels are not going anywhere soon as a quick look at the world’s energy mix proves.

> https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-primary-energy

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#192
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries (High capacity chemical) are terrible for long term storage, namely they are toxic: https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/poison/dry-cell-ba... https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002805.htm https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-703-health-concerns... And cannot always be easily recycled: https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2023-09/Lithium-I... In addition to general concerns about chemical a…

There's also various schemes to use gravity. Pump water uphill above a dam when power demand is low like at night, also I have read speculation of trying to do this in some underground mine or something so it doesn't evaporate.

That has even a worse energy density and thus requires a lot of space.

We have nuclear energy, we don’t need to use technology from the medieval ages.

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#193
post #37
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Batteries are terrible for long term storage, namely they are toxic" Only some are toxic. But can you name the poison or danger with saltwater batteries? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

Yes, there are excellent non-"battery" technologies. I'm explicitly talking about the high capacity chemical batteries everyone's crazy for these days.

A nuclear reaction has a factor of one million more energy per Mol as compared to chemical reactions.

Why would want to build an enery system on low-energy-density technology?

That would be equivalent to using relays for building computers in 2024.

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#194
post #74

If battery growth is exponential, but mining of ore isn't, that's a pretty big red flag imo. Once raw material production hits a wall, prices go back up, profits droop, advancement declines. After a while there'll probably be a new OPEC for batteries. Batteries are here to stay, but the growth rate isn't.

This is unlikely to happen for several reasons. First, battery technology has changed to require only one rare ore: lithium. Older battery chemistries required nickel and cobalt, but the most popular chemistry in electric vehicles today is lithium iron phosphate.[1] It has lower energy density than nickel manganese cobalt (NMC) or nickel cobalt aluminum (NCA), but lasts longer and is safer. Second, lithium is everywh…

> Third, lithium is a tiny fraction of the cost of an electric vehicle. LFP batteries have around 160 grams of lithium per kWh, so a typical car battery (60-90kWh) has 10-15kg of lithium. The spot price for lithium is $15/kg, so the materials cost per car is around $150-250. If lithium prices went up by a factor of 10, the cost of the car would only go up by 5%. In contrast, doubling the price of petroleum almost doubles the cost of driving.

From what I've read this causes the lithium market to be very chaotic.

Supply is complicated and capital intensive to bring online while the demand is essentially inelastic.

Time it right and you make a fortunes.

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#196
post #100
post #29

I'm a little surprised by that energy density chart. Who's selling batteries that carry 500 Wh/kg? Those are research prototype numbers; I think that Amprius and the gamma-sulfur people have hit (or passed) that mark. But cars and cellphones have been using the Ni-Mn-Al-Co oxide family of cathodes for a decade. The recent large-scale development has been bringing on LiFePO4 which actually accepts a lower density in e…

CATL is. https://www.evlithium.com/lifepo4-battery-news/catl-condense...

That looks like a demo prototype. Farther along than I expected, though.

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#197
post #182

Given these trends, what is the predicted year that we'd expect the last fossil fuel burning power plant to be greenlit for construction in China, India, and the US? Follow-up: At what point is continued operation of existing coal become uneconomical (to simplify the question assume decent solar generation locations are available/ grid connected nearby).

Fossil fuels are not going anywhere soon as a quick look at the world’s energy mix proves. > https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-primary-energy

Thanks, but that does not answer my question.

I guess I want to hear predictions of when fossil fuel usage will peak, and over what time period will it be reduced by 20, 30, 50%.

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO EVs work best in medium density urban settings, where people still probably have their own garages or at least private parking spots but aren't likely to need to do 100+mi drives constantly. Truly high-density urban settings should ideally find transportation solutions without cars.

And stop using streets for car storage, opening them up to people and plants.

Don't you dare get my hopes up for streets lined with trees instead of cars.

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO EVs work best in medium density urban settings, where people still probably have their own garages or at least private parking spots but aren't likely to need to do 100+mi drives constantly. Truly high-density urban settings should ideally find transportation solutions without cars.

And stop using streets for car storage, opening them up to people and plants.

Bandaid-ing plants and naively making public spaces often doesn't work in the US. It's a little more work to make spaces where people actually want to be.

Look at the numerous existing city public spaces built into high profile architecture, where basically no one ever hangs out in. (There's a TED talk about this.)

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#200
post #94
post #67

Regarding price, leading manufacturers are already selling at a price below what was always understood as the point where EVs win in terms of economics: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/01/ev-lfp-battery-price-w... The recent price war in China is a testament to that.

> the point where EVs win in terms of economics If ubiquitous and cheap charging infrastructure is not being priced in, which is still a blocker for many. For example, I cannot reasonably run lengths of 110v extension cords down the block to charge a car overnight, and acquiring my own house with a garage is dramatically more expensive than any fuel savings. :p

> I cannot reasonably run lengths of 110v extension cords down the block to charge a car overnight, and acquiring my own house with a garage is dramatically more expensive

You don't need a garage, just some sort of reserved parking space... There are plenty of weatherproof electrical boxes. It costs a bit of money to have a trench from your home to your car parking area, but far less than buying a house.

And that "110v extension cord" can supply 240V with just a change of connectors on either end (e.g.: 6-30p) allowing charging twice as fast.

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