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Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

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Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#191

Post by Toutouxc »

jeffparsons wrote: post #189

I didn't expect fully autonomous trucking to be here yet. What I did expect, however, is semi-autonomous many-trailer trucks/convoys, because it's a much simpler technical problem that still offers enormous efficiency gains. Let's get a little bit crazy and imagine something very different from what we have today, but still only requiring a single driver. One truck cab at the front. Individual trailers have their own…

Maybe we could make the infrastructure cheaper, add some power lines and maybe make the road surface from steel for low friction!

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#193

Post by jdksmdbtbdnmsm »

jeffparsons wrote: post #189

I didn't expect fully autonomous trucking to be here yet. What I did expect, however, is semi-autonomous many-trailer trucks/convoys, because it's a much simpler technical problem that still offers enormous efficiency gains. Let's get a little bit crazy and imagine something very different from what we have today, but still only requiring a single driver. One truck cab at the front. Individual trailers have their own…

>semi-autonomous many-trailer trucks/convoys

Prepare to have your mind blown: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#194

Post by jeffparsons »

Toutouxc wrote: post #191
jeffparsons wrote: post #189

I didn't expect fully autonomous trucking to be here yet. What I did expect, however, is semi-autonomous many-trailer trucks/convoys, because it's a much simpler technical problem that still offers enormous efficiency gains. Let's get a little bit crazy and imagine something very different from what we have today, but still only requiring a single driver. One truck cab at the front. Individual trailers have their own…

Maybe we could make the infrastructure cheaper, add some power lines and maybe make the road surface from steel for low friction!

I take your point, but that requires long-term planning and alignment of a lot more people and organisations, all of whom have their own messy incentives.

I'm trying to think of solutions that can be mostly built by the private sector and deployed with only modest legislative changes.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#195

Post by lpapez »

ars wrote: post #152
itsoktocry wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't it though? More rolling resistance and braking surface area?

But then pressure (force) on each tire is lower now, so the friction is also lower. Effective friction is a function of weight and coefficient of friction between the materials. Interestingly the surface area of the contact is not part of the equation. On a flat surface a truck and a car using the same tire compound should have identical stopping distances. The issue comes when you are going downhill.

That equation works for friction between idealized solids. Tires are not even close to an idealized solid, they deform as more weight is added to them, so the contact surface area increases as more pressure is added.

That is why you see racing cars with big fat tires, because it's more grip and the relationship is not linear.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#196

Post by ahigherugliness »

Mordisquitos wrote: post #149
ahigherugliness wrote: post #143

I wonder why we don't lower the ambitions: chain five trucks together, so that for long stretches of highway (hundreds of miles) one driver can drive the "train of trucks" while the other truck drivers sleep. The trucks could be really close together so no cars can come between them. What problems am I overlooking that are not easily solvable?

It sounds like you are re-inventing the road train: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_train

Interesting, but does every unit have a driver? I was thinking, it could be interesting that they all have their drivers, because finally they won't all go to the same destination.

So it would be great that as a truck driver, you could attach yourself to one of these trains, sleep for a couple of hundred miles, put the alarm clock, wake up, then detach at the right time and go to your final individual destination. Maybe even take another "road train" for another couple of hundred miles...

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#197

Post by ahigherugliness »

akira2501 wrote: post #155
ahigherugliness wrote: post #143

I wonder why we don't lower the ambitions: chain five trucks together, so that for long stretches of highway (hundreds of miles) one driver can drive the "train of trucks" while the other truck drivers sleep. The trucks could be really close together so no cars can come between them. What problems am I overlooking that are not easily solvable?

There aren't any logistic piplines that make this favorable. If you actually wanted to do this you'd load it on intermodal freight cars and push it down rail to the destination. People seem to think trucks go from one "transfer hub" to another. That hardly ever happens, and when it does, the trucker usually drops off one trailer and picks up a different one. Most truck routes are actual deliveries or pickups. You go…

Sorry to depress you. You're right, I don't know anything of the business.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#198

Post by eeklipse »

itsoktocry wrote: post #105
coryrc wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding more wheels does not reduce stopping distance.

Doesn't it though? More rolling resistance and braking surface area?

From a fundamentals of physics standpoint; it’s only about the coefficient of friction and the normal force, surface area doesn’t come into play.

Realistically, surface area does come into play because things deform and heat up, but I can’t say how much.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#199

Post by Toutouxc »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #128
atahanacar wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet you need to lay and maintain roads, you're limited to where roads and RFID signs go. You also have the added inefficiency and environmental problems of rubber-to-asphalt contact. In addition, you need to carry batteries which means even more inefficient transportation.

> you need to lay and maintain roads, you're limited to where roads and RFID signs go No, the roads and signs are already there and being maintained.

You could probably save a lot on maintenance if you didn’t have trucks driving on the roads.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#200

Post by eklitzke »

tempest_ wrote: post #104
Edman274 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I should clarify that my response is in anticipation of the comment sections I often see on hackernews about self driving cars, rather than arguments from the self driving car companies themselves. Waymo won't say "we're slightly better than people, let us on your roadways" but I feel like every time I see something about self driving on Hackernews there's a handful of commenters taking the hyper-utilitarian vi…

Also isnt waymo only operating in Pheonix and California where the weather is always nice? What happens when it snows ?

What is the point you're trying to make? Waymo isn't making claims about their driving performance in snow. And they're not comparing their performance to using a basket of human performance in all weather conditions, if you read the linked blog post they're specifically comparing to human driving performance in the regions in California and Arizona they're testing in.
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