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Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

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Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#191

Post by bmicraft »

LoganDark wrote: post #188
bmicraft wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When done properly this is supposed to have a 100% success rate. Sounds a lot like the No True Scotsman fallacy. I'm sure most smokers trying to quit think about how bad it is every single time, yet they can't. How would one even know when you've "thought about it hard enough"?

> I'm sure most smokers trying to quit think about how bad it is every single time, yet they can't. No, this isn't it. It's trying to take control of the actual act of doing the thing. Being self-aware about its harm doesn't count. So, you'd have to realize what you're doing before you get out the cigarette. The aim is to do it without relying on the compulsion so that the compulsion will eventually go away. It's not…

I didn't mean to suggest smokers trying to quit only think about how bad it is once their cig is lit. I don't understand your suggestion; that one can be more self-aware than noticing one doing something.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#192

Post by LoganDark »

bmicraft wrote: post #191
LoganDark wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure most smokers trying to quit think about how bad it is every single time, yet they can't. No, this isn't it. It's trying to take control of the actual act of doing the thing. Being self-aware about its harm doesn't count. So, you'd have to realize what you're doing before you get out the cigarette. The aim is to do it without relying on the compulsion so that the compulsion will eventually go away. It's not…

I didn't mean to suggest smokers trying to quit only think about how bad it is once their cig is lit. I don't understand your suggestion; that one can be more self-aware than noticing one doing something.

It's not about self-awareness, is the thing. If you notice you're doing something after you've already started doing it, then you already did it compulsively, without thinking. The goal is to start doing it on purpose so that the compulsion doesn't even have to happen at all. By doing this, you teach your brain that you don't need the compulsion anymore.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#193

Post by bmicraft »

sumeruchat wrote: post #169

Will power is just like a muscle like any other and needs flexing to become stronger. If you dont have a strong muscle then indeed you couldnt do much with it and need crutches. But try to flex this muscle on unrelated things and soon it will be good enough to say no to anything even smoking.

What you're saying goes hard in the exact opposite direction of ego depletion. Which, while despite being a bit controversial, is still a thing research has shown to exists under some circumstances.

Essentially ego depletion says you only have a finite capacity to act against your impulse.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#194

Post by atmavatar »

TillE wrote: post #100
endisneigh wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting that a forum filled with a disproportionate amount of techies still fall for such biases

Technical ability and knowledge just doesn't correlate with critical thinking at all. At worst, it makes you more likely to fall into that common trap of believing you're "smart" and therefore know everything about everything.

I'm too old to know everything.

I think a significant factor is tech skews young. Once your gem turns black, it's time for carousel. (Amusingly, if you understand that reference, you're probably already older than many tech companies are comfortable with).

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#195

Post by bmicraft »

LoganDark wrote: post #192
bmicraft wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean to suggest smokers trying to quit only think about how bad it is once their cig is lit. I don't understand your suggestion; that one can be more self-aware than noticing one doing something.

It's not about self-awareness, is the thing. If you notice you're doing something after you've already started doing it, then you already did it compulsively, without thinking. The goal is to start doing it on purpose so that the compulsion doesn't even have to happen at all. By doing this, you teach your brain that you don't need the compulsion anymore.

Is there any research to suggest that's a real thing? It certainly does not sound like something that should be possible when you put it this way.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#196

Post by [deleted] »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #161
rizzom5000 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that someone who is a good singer would also be a good dancer is a non-starter for someone applying critical thinking, in my opinion. Do you have any other examples where you think critical thinking abilities cannot be universally applied?

:) can I please get an explanation why it's obvious to you that there is not correlation between singing and dancing ability? I'm genuinely curious EDIT: I can't dance nor sing for shit so I guess I'm a living example of falling victim of some sort of logical fallacy.

[deleted]

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#197

Post by hydrok9 »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #161
rizzom5000 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that someone who is a good singer would also be a good dancer is a non-starter for someone applying critical thinking, in my opinion. Do you have any other examples where you think critical thinking abilities cannot be universally applied?

:) can I please get an explanation why it's obvious to you that there is not correlation between singing and dancing ability? I'm genuinely curious EDIT: I can't dance nor sing for shit so I guess I'm a living example of falling victim of some sort of logical fallacy.

they're two totally different skills

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#198

Post by LoganDark »

bmicraft wrote: post #195
LoganDark wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about self-awareness, is the thing. If you notice you're doing something after you've already started doing it, then you already did it compulsively, without thinking. The goal is to start doing it on purpose so that the compulsion doesn't even have to happen at all. By doing this, you teach your brain that you don't need the compulsion anymore.

Is there any research to suggest that's a real thing? It certainly does not sound like something that should be possible when you put it this way.

Not aware of any research on it, no. Monks do it, but I don't know if they do it in the exact same way I describe. I searched through my history to see if I could find the article where I heard this, but I can't find it.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#199

Post by claytongulick »

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

Someone explained to me that the subconscious mind does not like giving up something that it likes in exchange for nothing. Say for example you want to give up smoking. So don't give up. Instead, just stop that behavior for the present time - then your subconscious is not fighting you. So you want a cigarette? Well sure OK you can have one, but defer that decision to have it for some period of time. Maybe start with…

I was really lucky, I guess.

I smoked around a half a pack a day for about 20 years.

I decided to start getting in shape and started swimming every day.

All of my desire to smoke vanished overnight. I don't know why, or what the mechanism was. I never intentionally decided to "quit".

It just suddenly happened that I had zero desire to smoke, so I didn't anymore.

I still work out regularly, and it's been 10 years now since I've had a cigarette.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#200

Post by dceddia »

dyno12345 wrote: post #74
bitshaker wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Changing your identity is much more powerful and sort of operates in a background process whereas willpower is more of a conscious foreground one and very difficult to sustain long term. Read the book. It goes into some detail. I’ve worked with thousands of people personally over the years to help them with supposedly difficult to treat addictions for instance. Willpower is fine to start, but completely fails in…

This might be a stupid question, but what is "identity" in this context? I ask because when this subject has come up I realize I don't seem to be able to think up theories about myself so easily

Run a few test theories and see what resonates. Are you the kind of person who goes to the gym every day? Are you the kind of person who works on their hobbies at night? Are you the kind of person who binges Netflix between dinner and bed? Are you the person who cooks dinner from scratch, or orders takeout at every chance? etc. I think of them a bit like stereotypes but applied to myself, and see if I think I fit.
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