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Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

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Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#191

Post by Swizec »

jancsika wrote: post #166

I recently watched a coworker lose a job by embodying this very logic. I think the problem comes from the conflict between denying/rejecting victimhood, on the one hand, and realizing that one must get the fuck out of a very, very bad situation immediately, by any means on the other. From what I could tell it quickly becomes an inescapable cycle between "it's always my fault and I'll fix it"-- which implies leaving--…

> which strongly implies you and only you fix it

Asking for help is a perfectly encouraged way of fixing a problem. That's just a modality. You're still taking ownership of the situation and making steps to remedy.

I'd go so far as saying that asking for help is often the quickest and fastest way of fixing an issue. People can't help unless they a) know you need help and b) know what kind of help. Just sitting there fuming in your victimhood won't inspire people to rush over and help.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#192

Post by zozbot234 »

somesortofthing wrote: post #184
SoftTalker wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more self-serving for those in power to encourage a culture of victimhood, where they set themselves up as the saviors. This is a standard political gambit: create or identify a group of victims, and declare that you will get "payback" for them and make their situation better. Of course you don't, but that's OK, you got their votes and you just recycle and amplify that play next time.

If this was the universal(or even most common) outcome of people organizing against sources of suffering in their lives, we'd still be living in stone age city states. The process you describe has time and again led to net-positive outcomes. "It has to work 100% of the time or it's not worth doing" isn't a standard we apply anywhere else.

If by "the process you describe" you mean widespread violence and upheaval, then that is pretty much backwards. The Yanomamo are merely one among countless examples of societies that are "stuck in the stone age" due to recurring violence, with tribesfolk fighting to gain control over resources and women. Human development has occurred historically via gradual change, working to subtly shift existing social arrangements over time rather than fighting them outright.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#193

Post by jrflowers »

epiccoleman wrote: post #183
jrflowers wrote: post #18

> If you just take the attitude that, however bad it is in any way, it’s always your fault I like the idea of having an inspirational quote that shares a premise with a suicide note pinned to the wall, it is very motivating

Eh, I don't read it like that, but that's the cool thing about words and individuals I guess. You can view it as a fatalistic acceptance of too much responsibility for one's own suffering or a motivating reminder of your agency. Or somewhere in between. I often find it inspirational when I'm stuck in a self pitying mode.

I love the idea of cargo cult-ing myself into major depression by doing reverse cognitive behavioral therapy in order to be more like a nonagenarian billionaire.

“Mimic severe mental illness by refusing the nature of reality” is a piece of advice that only a genius could conjure up

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#194

Post by ethanbond »

jrflowers wrote: post #193
epiccoleman wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I don't read it like that, but that's the cool thing about words and individuals I guess. You can view it as a fatalistic acceptance of too much responsibility for one's own suffering or a motivating reminder of your agency. Or somewhere in between. I often find it inspirational when I'm stuck in a self pitying mode.

I love the idea of cargo cult-ing myself into major depression by doing reverse cognitive behavioral therapy in order to be more like a nonagenarian billionaire. “Mimic severe mental illness by refusing the nature of reality” is a piece of advice that only a genius could conjure up

What CBT protocol did you do that had you systematically putting agency and responsibility outside of yourself?

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#195

Post by jrflowers »

ethanbond wrote: post #194
jrflowers wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the idea of cargo cult-ing myself into major depression by doing reverse cognitive behavioral therapy in order to be more like a nonagenarian billionaire. “Mimic severe mental illness by refusing the nature of reality” is a piece of advice that only a genius could conjure up

What CBT protocol did you do that had you systematically putting agency and responsibility outside of yourself?

You make a good point. CBT is about assigning blame to the self. Despite being labeled “cognitive distortions” things like black and white thinking and personalization and blame are things that CBT teaches you to do more often

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#196

Post by jjoonathan »

anyfoo wrote: post #72
jjoonathan wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affordable housing where all I have to give up is a shitty view? Sign me up!

Obviously (which makes me guess you’re not serious) it’s not about the view but the natural light.

Nothing beats natural light at its best, especially in CA, but gee, all sorts of people default into shitty depressing natural light situations (MA, I'm looking at you) that could be trounced by a mediocre artificial setup. If you listen to the tone of the rhetoric here you'd think Munger was killing babies, when in fact the light situation evidently doesn't even reach everybody's threshold for the simple action of buying a decent lamp. Shrug.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#197

Post by matteoraso »

ethanbond wrote: post #181
matteoraso wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1. I’m NOT a victim. >Now, I want to be clear that you can, in fact, be a victim and things can happen in your life that isn’t your fault Going to be honest here, I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you saying that people should go through life never feeling like a victim, even if they are one? I don't see how that would be helpful. >5. Whatever happens in life, I give myself a cap of 48 hours to get over…

I think they're saying that you can use belief as a tool in your thinking, even if you know intellectually it's not true now and certainly won't be true always. The belief that you are not a victim is (often) a very useful belief because it prompts change in the only place you're reliably able to produce it: your own decisions. This is true irrespective of whether you're actually a victim today or tomorrow. Obviously…

>The belief that you are not a victim is (often) a very useful belief because it prompts change in the only place you're reliably able to produce it: your own decisions.

I figured that this is the angle that he was going for, but I still don't believe it. Feeling like a victim can prompt change as well, and like you said, refusing to feel like a victim can prevent change. It's all about the situation, but I think that refusing to have an honest assessment of your situation will usually cause you to make bad decisions.

> Citation please? That's an extremely bold claim to be throwing out as established fact.

Grieving usually takes at least 6 months[0]. Trying to speedrun the process because you refuse to let yourself feel negative emotions is literally the absolute worst way to deal with loss, to the point that I'm actually surprised that somebody actually just suggested that. Same thing with being unproductive for more than 48 hours. That's a recipe for burnout, and trying to just power through burnout for your entire life without accepting that you might need to rest for a bit will make you feel useless and depressed that you can't reach your absurdly strict self-goals. Self-hatred increases the risk of suicide[1], and I can't imagine that anybody would use this framework unless they despise themselves or have never suffered in their life.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK66052/

[1] https://www.healthyplace.com/blogs/buildingselfesteem/2018/9...

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#198

Post by jay-barronville »

matteoraso wrote: post #178
jay-barronville wrote: post #70

I love it. Without even knowing about this particular quote, this has been my standard for myself for some years now. The “it’s always your fault” concept is scary to some folks—and I understand why—but it’s changed my life since I adopted it years ago. Generally speaking, my framework is: 1. I’m NOT a victim. 2. I accept that everything that happens in my life is my fault. 3. I control the controllables; I can’t fix…

>1. I’m NOT a victim. >Now, I want to be clear that you can, in fact, be a victim and things can happen in your life that isn’t your fault Going to be honest here, I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you saying that people should go through life never feeling like a victim, even if they are one? I don't see how that would be helpful. >5. Whatever happens in life, I give myself a cap of 48 hours to get over…

> You must seriously loathe yourself or live an incredibly sheltered life if you actually follow this (e.g. not just bottling up your emotions and pretending that you're okay).

Nonsense. It’s actually quite the opposite. I’m a black man who’s been told my entire life that I’m a victim. And to an extent, I was a victim; I grew up in some of the worst environments in America, I’ve been through more trauma—including serious physical violence—than most folks, and my skin color was always my victimhood pass. I’ve been blessed to have had both of my parents married and in my life, and they did their best to teach me to be a responsible person, but everyone else always told me that I had excuses for my issues in life. You know what’s actually destructive? Allowing folks to live in a perpetual state of victimhood. It’s debilitating and renders you powerless. Not allowing myself to be a victim is quite literally the most powerful and life-changing thing to ever happen to me.

Also, it’s not about “pretending” that I’m okay … I am. I’m a realist. I accept that life comes the way it does and figure out ways to move forward despite whatever comes at me. In the grand scheme of things, most of the things we tend to stress ourselves about aren’t actually that deep. And when they are, well, you’re still human, so it’s perfectly reasonable to react accordingly. If someone extremely close to me dies, you’re right, it might take slightly longer than a weekend to get through it, but I’m optimizing for the most likely situations; in my experience, most situations that have folks curling up in a ball aren’t “my dad died” situations.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#199

Post by jrflowers »

matteoraso wrote: post #178
jay-barronville wrote: post #70

I love it. Without even knowing about this particular quote, this has been my standard for myself for some years now. The “it’s always your fault” concept is scary to some folks—and I understand why—but it’s changed my life since I adopted it years ago. Generally speaking, my framework is: 1. I’m NOT a victim. 2. I accept that everything that happens in my life is my fault. 3. I control the controllables; I can’t fix…

>1. I’m NOT a victim. >Now, I want to be clear that you can, in fact, be a victim and things can happen in your life that isn’t your fault Going to be honest here, I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you saying that people should go through life never feeling like a victim, even if they are one? I don't see how that would be helpful. >5. Whatever happens in life, I give myself a cap of 48 hours to get over…

> This is the kind of mindset that leads to people committing suicide.

I agree with this, I’ve seen it play out numerous times. This sort of reasoning barely works on a surface level if at all and requires maintaining at least one giant blind spot — in this case it’s likely impossible to “get over” the intense need for constant unwavering control over one’s internal state that lead to the creation of the 48 hour rule.

The sort of terror underlying the thought of who a person might become if they were to slip up and be sad for three days or two weeks etc. can only be ignored, suppressed or (self)medicated — certainly not “overcome” in that window.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#200

Post by tech_ken »

zozbot234 wrote: post #78
tech_ken wrote: post #61

> He thought that every mischance in life was an opportunity to behave well, every mischance in life was an opportunity to learn something, and your duty was not to be submerged in self-pity but to utilize the terrible blow in a constructive fashion. Feeling like a victim is not the same as wallowing in self-pity. Recognizing that you have been victimized in some way could easily be the first step towards taking owne…

> it's probably not healthy in the long-term to pretend like it's "your fault" ... Tak[e] a clear view of the causes of your current circumstances There's always things in your control and things out of your control, but the notion of "victim" does zilch to clarify which is which. It's a pointless distraction, a snare for the mind.

That’s not really what I’m saying. Understanding the causes of your circumstances obviously doesn’t necessarily entail what is in your control or not. However focusing only on the levers you control, while remaining blind to the causes of the problem is just as useless as the other way around. Only by bringing together a clear model of the problem with a rigorous analysis of possible interventions can you really make forward progress in your life.

Heres an example that I think is likely similar to what OP is imagining when they think of “victim mentality”: say I’m a woman in a technical field who is experiencing misogyny in my workplace. I have several levers available to me: I can quit and seek a new job, I can work harder, I can contact HR, I can confront the misogynist directly, I can request a transfer to another team, etc. But if I simply pretend “it’s my fault” I will likely only recognize the first two as viable options, even if they’re not globally optimal (ex. if the misogynist is in charge of promotions simply working harder will likely not result in the rewards I’m seeking). Observe that in this example I am still keeping the control, and I am emphatically not saying “oh well I guess I’ll never get promoted” and accepting mediocrity. But an honest stock-take of the things within my control, and their likely efficacy at addressing the problem I’m facing, 100% requires the realization that I am being victimized by someone.

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