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PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

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Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#191

Post by vetinari »

rcxdude wrote: post #14
jdlyga wrote: post #7

Are we subjecting ourselves to the sunk cost fallacy with Wayland? It's been "almost ready" for 6 or 7 years at this point.

A way forward probably looks like a more feature-oriented fork of wayland than a do-over. The basic protocol is fine, it's just there's no sense of urgency to actually add important features to the standard, just a long design-by-comittee process which bogs down progress and frustrates developers and users.

There doesn't need to be any sense of urgency; see all the people complaining that there is no screen casting API? Well, it was implemented three years ago by all three major compositors, and they still didn't manage to notice.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#192

Post by vetinari »

askonomm wrote: post #141
abrouwers wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, what sort of hardware issues? I don't have experience with Nvidia, but on Intel, my experience is equal on gnome (in fact, quite improved for the last couple of years - more fluid animations, less lag, etc). I've had this experience on thinkpads and most recently a framework laptop (though, vendor hardly makes a difference in this case).

Most of the issues are Linux auto-installing wrong graphic drivers, which then after a reboot results in a broken DE that doesn't work, and I don't want to spend my time manually verifying every update it tells me to install. I've had that in latest Ubuntu and Mint, to name a few. Other common issues I stumble upon is lack of audio driver support with either the audio not working at all, or working badly (no bass at…

> Most of the issues are Linux auto-installing wrong graphic drivers,

What? Since when linux auto-install drivers?

You get those with your kernel and mesa (except nvidia). There is no installation.

> Then of course what is now a running joke that Linux is unable to put my computer to sleep, so when I close the lid and open it again a few hours later, the battery is drained.

Windows has exactly the same problem. You can thank "Connected standby" (pushed by Microsoft) for that -- neither Linux, nor Windows puts computer to sleep. They ask the firmware to put the computer to sleep. If the firmware is buggy, here's your problem.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#193

Post by yencabulator »

vetinari wrote: post #190
saati wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The underlying design architecture is simply not correct for modern hardware and its abstractions Could you elaborate on this?

He can't, since the gfx part of Wayland is a thin, event-based abstraction over the modern hardware. It basically manages buffers between the hardware and clients. The comparison to Qt, Gtk or Electron is also very wrong; it is an entirely different layer in the stack.

Your first clue to it being a worthless rant was confusing window layout decisions with the Wayland protocol.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#194

Post by yencabulator »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #32
apatheticonion wrote: post #27

As a naive user who largely hasn't had any issue with it. Is Wayland that bad?

In my experience Wayland is pretty bad on Nvidia binary driver, has some annoyances on Gnome and works fabulous on AMD hardware with KDE or a wlroots based compositor.

I think you meant to say NVidia drivers are bad... Not Wayland's fault, or the fault of any single compositor, or the kernel DRM's fault.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#195

Post by yencabulator »

Lammy wrote: post #183
charcircuit wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you want to facilitate the bad user habits of Windows, iOS, Android, etc on the Linux desktop They are not bad user habits. They are only bad if the system is poorly designed. Unfortunately, the Linux desktop was poorly designed and the community is taking their sweet time to fix it. >Why do you even want to use the Linux desktop in the first place if you prefer those systems? It's just what I am used to using. I ac…

That all sounds like a better case for sandboxing our data rather than sandboxing our applications. The application-centrism is an iOS-ism (and now a Mac-ism, but I repeat myself) designed to facilitate Apple’s economic model where they are the sole gatekeeper of what a computer is allowed to do. People blindly copy that model into the Free Software world because Apple are Very Rich and so everything they do is autom…

You can't effectively sandbox your data if every application can fully control your display & input.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#196

Post by [deleted] »

Lammy wrote: post #183
charcircuit wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you want to facilitate the bad user habits of Windows, iOS, Android, etc on the Linux desktop They are not bad user habits. They are only bad if the system is poorly designed. Unfortunately, the Linux desktop was poorly designed and the community is taking their sweet time to fix it. >Why do you even want to use the Linux desktop in the first place if you prefer those systems? It's just what I am used to using. I ac…

That all sounds like a better case for sandboxing our data rather than sandboxing our applications. The application-centrism is an iOS-ism (and now a Mac-ism, but I repeat myself) designed to facilitate Apple’s economic model where they are the sole gatekeeper of what a computer is allowed to do. People blindly copy that model into the Free Software world because Apple are Very Rich and so everything they do is autom…

[deleted]

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#197

Post by yencabulator »

LtWorf wrote: post #59
hashworks wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I'm just hoping for some user that will be bugged enough by problems in Wayland that they decide to fix them. The chance of that increases with user count. I understand that the bulk "forest" of Linux users don't care about their window manager / desktop environment, but it's a higher number than in other operating systems. This approach wouldn't work in Windows or MacOS, in Linux it might.

Why learn about wayland and figure out how to fix things (and then probably have gnome developers never ever accept your fix) when you can just switch to Xorg in 3 seconds?

Because nobody maintains Xorg anymore. Wayland was started because the Xorg developers thought Xorg had come to the end of the road and was unfixable. You can think of Wayland as X12, except without copyright/trademark concerns.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#198

Post by nzentzis »

k8svet wrote: post #58
imiric wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X11 today works better for more users than Wayland. No user will want to switch to something that provides a worse experience. Until these issues are ironed out, it's delusional to think that making Wayland the default will make users happy. Keep it as an experimental feature, and once it provides an objectively better experience for everyone, make it the default. These technical discussions by folks in the trenches…

Sure, X11 "better", as long as you don't have high or mixed DPI screens, appreciate variable refresh rates, arbitrary scale factors, don't mind inconsistent tearing, aren't bothered by using a openly unmaintained, abandoned critical piece of desktop infra, etc. Otoh, if you're willing to buy a GPU from a vendor that doesn't snub Linux, or maybe god forbid change screenshot programs (doubt you even need to nowadays),…

The “oh, just don’t buy a GPU from NVidia” point is one I see made a lot when discussing Wayland’s failures, but it completely misses the fact that CUDA is currently the only viable option for GPU compute in many situations. If any significant part of your desktop usage involves such compute, that’s not a solution - or rather it’s a solution that renders your system less capable than it was before.

Though in a sense that’s consistent with Wayland’s general “you’re holding it wrong” approach of shifting blame for any problems onto the person reporting them and concluding that anything that doesn’t work well isn’t a valid use-case anyway.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#199

Post by soniczentropy »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #32
apatheticonion wrote: post #27

As a naive user who largely hasn't had any issue with it. Is Wayland that bad?

In my experience Wayland is pretty bad on Nvidia binary driver, has some annoyances on Gnome and works fabulous on AMD hardware with KDE or a wlroots based compositor.

Never tried it on AMD hardware, but I can confirm Nvidia drivers cause it to go haywire on all 4 of my machines. I try yearly or so, see everything's still a dumpster fire, and head back to X11

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#200

Post by Ferret7446 »

jxdxbx wrote: post #68
idle_zealot wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately that's not avoidable. The duplication exists because of disagreement regarding how things should be done. The alternative is not "my preferred project gets all the resources" but "my preferred project doesn't exist and all the resources go to some fundamentally flawed project that I don't want to use". See Windows or macOS for how that turns out.

Windows and macOS are both more popular and usable than desktop Linux so I think it turns out fine.

"More popular" is wrong, in a deliciously ironic way. Android by far eclipses everything else in terms of consumer computing.
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