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Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

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Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#191

Post by BoiledCabbage »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #162
akoboldfrying wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If AI-powered ad blocking becomes ubiquitous, it will mean the end of high-quality free services like Google Search, Gmail, Google Maps, Google Translate and YouTube, for all of which I much prefer to pay with my attention rather than cold, hard cash. I have no doubt that current AI is capable of this (in fact I'm sure it would be trivial for GPT-3.5 and well within reach of even locally-run LLMs), the question is wh…

> it will mean the end of high-quality free services So be it. If those services can't survive without ads and surveillance capitalism, they don't deserve to exist.

An argument I read that has merit is that ad supported services does democratize the web for developing countries.

If for example youtube with all of its information or even Google search required a subscription, suddenly a lot of people who make significantly less than the average for the developed world would no longer be able to access those resources.

I still hate the ad surveillance everywhere, but it was a point I hadn't considered before.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#192

Post by mistercheph »

akoboldfrying wrote: post #179
scarface_74 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as a high quality ad supported service. Ads make the user experience worse in every single circumstance. I forget how bad Google Search is until I get a new computer/phone without ad blocking enabled

All of the services I mentioned are either directly (Search) or indirectly ad-supported, the latter insofar as Google pays for their development and upkeep somehow, and most of Google's revenue comes from ads. And I think they are all of excellent quality. Ads are irritating, and Google is not supplying these services out of the goodness of their heart, but I think there's no question that the world is a better place…

I’ll raise the question.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#193

Post by mistercheph »

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #191
matheusmoreira wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it will mean the end of high-quality free services So be it. If those services can't survive without ads and surveillance capitalism, they don't deserve to exist.

An argument I read that has merit is that ad supported services does democratize the web for developing countries. If for example youtube with all of its information or even Google search required a subscription, suddenly a lot of people who make significantly less than the average for the developed world would no longer be able to access those resources. I still hate the ad surveillance everywhere, but it was a poin…

Wikipedia

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#194

Post by matheusmoreira »

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #191
matheusmoreira wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it will mean the end of high-quality free services So be it. If those services can't survive without ads and surveillance capitalism, they don't deserve to exist.

An argument I read that has merit is that ad supported services does democratize the web for developing countries. If for example youtube with all of its information or even Google search required a subscription, suddenly a lot of people who make significantly less than the average for the developed world would no longer be able to access those resources. I still hate the ad surveillance everywhere, but it was a poin…

I am from a developing country. One which banned advertising in its biggest city.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cidade_Limpa

https://99percentinvisible.org/article/clean-city-law-secret...

There are plenty of online resources which don't require ads. Sibling comment mentions Wikipedia, Open Street Map also comes to mind. We need more of these in this world. Not this ad-supported nonsense.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#195

Post by akoboldfrying »

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #191
matheusmoreira wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it will mean the end of high-quality free services So be it. If those services can't survive without ads and surveillance capitalism, they don't deserve to exist.

An argument I read that has merit is that ad supported services does democratize the web for developing countries. If for example youtube with all of its information or even Google search required a subscription, suddenly a lot of people who make significantly less than the average for the developed world would no longer be able to access those resources. I still hate the ad surveillance everywhere, but it was a poin…

I agree, and I think the same argument holds for poor people everywhere, including poor people in developed countries.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#196

Post by superdug »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #172
akoboldfrying wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we disagree on whether advertising goods and services to people should be considered a crime.

We do. I think advertising of all kinds should be illegal. I consider it to be a form of mind rape when they forcibly insert their brands and products into my mind without my consent.

Therein lies the rub (or more precisely the problem) advertising at its core does _NOT_ have to be evil. Taking into account that the onus of every advertisement is to entice you to do something that you may have otherwise not considered we still do not negate the need for an advertisement to be evil. Now, you may very well be enticed to do something that is not in absolutely everyone’s best interests in mind, which does indeed qualify as evil. And I believe we agree that there are far too many advertisements prevalent that are indeed evil when referring specifically towards advertisements on a digital medium. So I think that the argument is valid that ending all advertising would ultimately prevent all evil advertising it would also prevent any not evil advertising from ever happening as well. Now again, that may be perfectly acceptable to you, your argument that advertising should not happen at all isn’t really practical for absolutely everyone who does or doesn’t support your absolute opinion on advertisements, as contrary to you, but they want you to simply affirm that their opinion is not absolutely based on them supporting the evil ads that you both abhor.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#197

Post by hotnfresh »

akoboldfrying wrote: post #160
matheusmoreira wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully that will be literally illegal due to accessibility concerns. Doesn't matter either way. Can't wait for AI-powered ad blocking. Just imagine it. AI parses content and filters out ads, brands, even subtle PR text from pages automatically. Not just textual content either. It also kills ads in audio, video, images. If I can imagine it, it must be possible. I'm sure someone much smarter than me will create this…

If AI-powered ad blocking becomes ubiquitous, it will mean the end of high-quality free services like Google Search, Gmail, Google Maps, Google Translate and YouTube, for all of which I much prefer to pay with my attention rather than cold, hard cash. I have no doubt that current AI is capable of this (in fact I'm sure it would be trivial for GPT-3.5 and well within reach of even locally-run LLMs), the question is wh…

The end of ad-supported services makes room for open protocols, open source, and regular old commercial software. All of which have suffered from lack of interest—from developers and users—in this environment where they have to compete with “free”.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#198

Post by scotty79 »

tshaddox wrote: post #84
EvanAnderson wrote: post #30

There's a product here that's been waiting to happen for awhile. I've been anticipating somebody cross-compiling another browser engine to WASM but this works, too. Deliver your site only to the "inner browser" (that the user has no control over because it's heavily obfuscated and tricked-out with anti-debugging code) and you eliminate all ad blockers. Throw some DNS-over-HTTPS w/ certificate pinning in for good meas…

> Deliver your site only to the "inner browser" (that the user has no control over because it's heavily obfuscated and tricked-out with anti-debugging code) and you eliminate all ad blockers. Throw some DNS-over-HTTPS w/ certificate pinning in for good measure and you kill DNS-based ad blockers too. I'm confused how the "inner browser" meaningfully helps you accomplish this. How is this any easier or more effective t…

Obfuscation and randomisation can only get this far. Virtual browser would as opaque as raw binary producing animated image.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#199

Post by __float »

djtango wrote: post #185
scarface_74 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as a high quality ad supported service. Ads make the user experience worse in every single circumstance. I forget how bad Google Search is until I get a new computer/phone without ad blocking enabled

I find Maps and YouTube are still good products

I sometimes throw a YouTube video on the TV for some background noise (or for my cat :-) and if you're not paying attention, the ads can get incredibly long -- not just a few minutes, but 20, 30+ minutes.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#200

Post by phito »

postalrat wrote: post #133
mjfl wrote: post #117

Why do people love JavaScript and want everything written in it?

Because it's a great language that many people use every day.

I don't know how people can say that JS is a great language with a straight face. Sure it has a lot of advantages mostly due to how widespread it is. But it's really obviously not a great programming language by itself...
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