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We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

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Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#191

Post by greiskul »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #169
melling wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“What incredible inconvenience are we trying to solve?” 40,000 deaths in the United States every year. Hundreds of thousands of costly accidents We can’t get great transportation even in the New York City area. We have 0 miles of high-speed rail, while China built 25,000 it’s great that you want to start building some mass transit, but it’ll take a century if we start now. Let’s start by having trains take you to the…

You want to take a bite out of road deaths legislate a vehicle/phone interlink that disables everything but basic phone functions on smartphones while in the confines of a vehicle, then legislate center console infotainment displays out of existence. Miss me with the bullshit "AI drivers will usher in a new era of road safety", you can trap an AV with a fucking ring of salt on the road if you're clever about how it's…

> Miss me with the bullshit "AI drivers will usher in a new era of road safety", you can trap an AV with a fucking ring of salt on the road if you're clever about how it's arranged. :P

How many people die when you do that? An AV stopping cause it encounters a weird situation is failing safe, and it is the correct thing for it to do. And yeah, they normally stop if you maliciously attack them. But human drivers also stop if you blow out their tires, or hit the driver with a well aimed rock. Car safety is not judged on malicious attacks, we are not talking about autonomous tanks.

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#192

Post by newswasboring »

melling wrote: post #64
polalavik wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of all the tech problems to solve, driverless cars or driverless taxis has always baffled me. It’s a very complex thing to solve with a zillion edge cases. And for what net gain? What incredible inconvenience are we trying to solve? Lack of good public transit? Let’s solve that instead. Millions of cars driverless or not are not a great solution to anything.

“What incredible inconvenience are we trying to solve?” 40,000 deaths in the United States every year. Hundreds of thousands of costly accidents We can’t get great transportation even in the New York City area. We have 0 miles of high-speed rail, while China built 25,000 it’s great that you want to start building some mass transit, but it’ll take a century if we start now. Let’s start by having trains take you to the…

> it’s great that you want to start building some mass transit, but it’ll take a century if we start now.

I don't buy this. Specially in cities. You have roads, buy some buses and hire and train good bus drivers. Put some poles as bus stops. Lots of countries have done it in less than a decade.

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#193

Post by greiskul »

iancmceachern wrote: post #126
melling wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“What incredible inconvenience are we trying to solve?” 40,000 deaths in the United States every year. Hundreds of thousands of costly accidents We can’t get great transportation even in the New York City area. We have 0 miles of high-speed rail, while China built 25,000 it’s great that you want to start building some mass transit, but it’ll take a century if we start now. Let’s start by having trains take you to the…

Yes, but those deaths could also be "solved" with mass transit.

Yeah, but let's be realistic. The US car dependency is something that to change would both require major reconstructions of multiple cities, and a cultural shift that is just not happening. It is easier to solve fully self driving cars, for every single weather and situation, then it is to convince Americans that maybe a train to their neighborhood is a good idea.

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#194

Post by rvz »

As expected, the tech bros and AI bros cannot convince the regulators that their so-called level 5 robo-taxi is any safer than a human driver and are forced to stop driverless vehicles operating on the roads.

It its hardly difficult to just pause the whole thing since these systems didn’t go further than the SF bubble.

Just goes to show that this driverless snake oil essentially put everyone on the roads at risk.

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#195

Post by decafninja »

kdmccormick wrote: post #143
decafninja wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Plenty of other countries" isn't the US. For reasons that have nothing to do with cars, the US will never achieve the clean, safe, reliable systems like you see in Asia that are often heralded as the posterchild of ideal public transit. Wave a magic wand materialize the Tokyo or Seoul subway system into an American metropolis, and within a short period of time, you'll see it devolve. We just cannot have nice things…

You're making big assertions without giving any details. > Ironically, the contingent of people that are most aggressive/ambitious about promoting public transit are often the same that are most against taking the (admittedly, not always the most pleasant) steps needed to sell the idea to the masses. Like what?

For example - ensuring there aren't crazy drug addicted homeless persons raging about murdering everyone on the train.

When issues like that are brought up, common responses from the pro-transit crowd include:

"The psycho is completely harmless, just let him be. He has every right to be on the subway too."

"Cars kill people!. The psycho will never hurt anyone!"

"We have to pass Medicare-for-all and pass unconditional housing-first policies first. Until then, we can't/shouldn't do anything to the psycho!"

To be fair:

I am sympathetic with some of the above. However such statements will not help you sell improving/expanding public transit to the American public.

And I know not every pro-transit person is like this. But there seems to be a sizable overlap.

Also, anecdotal, but since the pro-bike and pro-transit crowd also do overlap - I've noticed a lot of people take up commuting or just traveling by bicycle in NYC the past few years. But the most common reason I hear is to specifically avoid taking the subway as much as possible due to dangers.

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#196

Post by greiskul »

comte7092 wrote: post #160
adrr wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driverless cars are significantly safer than human drivers. https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2309/2309.01206.pdf

I never said that they weren’t/wouldn’t be. But that wasn’t the point I was responding to. The point I was responding to was that we need to address 40,000 traffic deaths per year, to which I said it doesn’t seem to be the most direct route there. Just because self driving cars are safer in some situations doesn’t mean that we will inevitably have that result within a reasonable timeframe and level of investment. Bes…

> a reasonable timeframe and level of investment

Compared to the time-frame and investments on which alternatives? It might take 40 years for self driving cars to improve and have enough deployments to significantly reduce the number of accidents, but at least there is a path there and it will happen at some point.

Getting americans to use public transit, requires not only investment in public transit: it requires a cultural shift in how Americans view life. A cheaper solution that can never be delivered is not a good solution, it's just a dream.

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#197

Post by greiskul »

dventimi wrote: post #130
dangus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won’t take a century if there’s political will. China built a network larger than the rest of the world combined in less than 20 years. Yes, you heard that right, in 2007 there was only one high speed passenger rail service in the entire country.

"...if there's political will." Well, there isn't political will. If you feel like trying to develop that political will, have at it.

Yeah, getting political will for that in the US is probably a harder problem to solve them full on strong AI.

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#198

Post by nehal3m »

polalavik wrote: post #17
xnx wrote: post #12

This is a good move on Cruise's part. Cruise is still nowhere near the maturity level that Waymo was at when Waymo first started driving on public roads. On the other hand, we definitely need a real competitor to Waymo. It doesn't seem likely, but hopefully some combination of Cruise, Apple(?), Tesla, or another player will be able to have a feasible alternative to Waymo's Driver.

Out of all the tech problems to solve, driverless cars or driverless taxis has always baffled me. It’s a very complex thing to solve with a zillion edge cases. And for what net gain? What incredible inconvenience are we trying to solve? Lack of good public transit? Let’s solve that instead. Millions of cars driverless or not are not a great solution to anything.

It’s blown my mind too. We would rather simulate consciousness than put down some tracks.

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#199

Post by greiskul »

tuatoru wrote: post #178
npunt wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rebuilding the tribe. We have divided ourselves into neat little nuclear family boxes and thrown ourselves together with a bunch of other randos in neat little boxes, with the unstated assumption that the family unit is the end all be all of human lived experience. This has separated us from our physical (atom-based) communities, to many ill effects including our friends and extended family being further away. This m…

This reads like utterly history-blind fantasy. You need to explain why all the other times and ways we have tried what you propose did not work, and what will be different this time. Start, perhaps, with "The Tyranny of Structurelessness".

What other times? People did not live in car centric societies before the 20th century. This is a relatively new problem, why do you think there were multiple attempts at solving it that did not work? The US has only gotten into this mess the last couple of generations.

And we can point to societies that were following a similar path, like the Netherlands, and then decided to stop and focus on a less car dependant society. It appears to be working over there.

Re: We have decided to pause driverless operations across all of our fleets

#200

Post by nvy »

eldritch_4ier wrote: post #167
melling wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“What incredible inconvenience are we trying to solve?” 40,000 deaths in the United States every year. Hundreds of thousands of costly accidents We can’t get great transportation even in the New York City area. We have 0 miles of high-speed rail, while China built 25,000 it’s great that you want to start building some mass transit, but it’ll take a century if we start now. Let’s start by having trains take you to the…

Nobody bought a Tesla in the last 5 years because “I want fewer highway fatalities”, they often bought it because they thought the overhyped self driving features would let them chill out on their commute. People want self driving cars so bad because driving everywhere sucks (and sitting on public transit sucks too). Routine travel is mundane and boring.

Sitting on public transit doesn't have to suck, though. Have you taken the Paris Métro? Or the London Tube?

They're totally fine experiences.

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