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Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

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Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#191

Post by marliechiller »

pphysch wrote: post #185
marliechiller wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have written countless programs but would not be able to answer that without first turning to google. You might have screened out plenty of valid applicants with this

You don't know how to transform the string "12345" to "12346" in a mainstream PL? I don't think "valid applicant" and "doesn't really grok strings/types" are compatible, outside of intern/maybe junior positions. The filter works.

The filter works perhaps for whatever niche you might be working in. I cant imagine asking this to one of my candidates and then assessing their entire professional experience off of something like this though.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#192

Post by gaoshan »

KaiserPro wrote: post #30

The problem is that "leetcode" is a definitely a thing that exists in "FAANG" interviews. The biggest stumbling block with leetcode is that you shouldn't be programming like that in real life. "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time…

Agreed. At our company the technical interview involves walking a dev through a working app that uses the same stack we develop with. There are bugs to solve, potential optimizations that exist and the dev explains and walks through the client/server/database portions (leaning into one or the other as needed). No tricky questions or puzzles... just actual code (a simplified subset but still real, working code).

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#193

Post by kaashif »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #140
jebarker wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a better way to evaluate real-world coding skills. Did you use it in a standard 45-60 min interview or as a take home problem? It seems like it'd take a decent amount of time to read the requirements and just introduce the task.

Take home and “please time box it to maybe an hour maximum, you’re probably doing a load of interviews and tech tests at the moment, so you don’t need to finish: I just want to see your approach”. In-person time I used to like to ask a question I got from here: “Tell me about your favourite coding work or side project”. We’d then dig into choices, trade offs, obstacles and how they got around them. My favourite answe…

"Please timebox to an hour" is a bit dodgy though. If one candidate really does that, but the rest give it an extra 2 or 3 hours, that 1 hour candidate will probably be at a disadvantage.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#194

Post by KerrAvon »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #186
ajkjk wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got a summary for those of us who can't listen right now?

Guy long-term sneaks into Apple buildings to get his passion project shipped with Apple's first PowerPC Macs. But my summary really doesn't do the interview justice. Highly worth listening to.

Note that the Graphing Calculator story is not something that could work after approximately the turn of the century. Security tightened up considerably sometime around then.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#195

Post by slt2021 »

zyang wrote: post #129
KaiserPro wrote: post #30

The problem is that "leetcode" is a definitely a thing that exists in "FAANG" interviews. The biggest stumbling block with leetcode is that you shouldn't be programming like that in real life. "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time…

Hiring should be a team level decision. Product roadmap should be an exec level decision. Google has it completely backwards. That's how you end up with hoards people gaming the hiring process by spending months on leetcode. And 3 chat apps from Google competing against each other.

gogle's product failure is failure of executives and product managers, not engineers.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#196

Post by pphysch »

marliechiller wrote: post #191
pphysch wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't know how to transform the string "12345" to "12346" in a mainstream PL? I don't think "valid applicant" and "doesn't really grok strings/types" are compatible, outside of intern/maybe junior positions. The filter works.

The filter works perhaps for whatever niche you might be working in. I cant imagine asking this to one of my candidates and then assessing their entire professional experience off of something like this though.

What domain do you program in where handling strings/bytes is not a weekly if not daily task?

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#197

Post by conor- »

sakopov wrote: post #171

Do tech companies still do old-school interviews where you just sit down with the hiring manager and talk about tech? I just did a few interview rounds, at some relatively obscure SAAS companies, after a very, very long break and they were all leetcode-type challenges. Is this the new norm?

You might find this helpful

https://github.com/poteto/hiring-without-whiteboards

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#198

Post by slt2021 »

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #33
KaiserPro wrote: post #30

The problem is that "leetcode" is a definitely a thing that exists in "FAANG" interviews. The biggest stumbling block with leetcode is that you shouldn't be programming like that in real life. "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time…

It also doesn't resemble "real" work with regards to gathering requirements, clarifying ambiguity, weighing up trade-offs, making sure code is clear, etc. It tends to be a rote regurgitation exercise.

> gathering requirements, clarifying ambiguity, weighing up trade-offs, making sure code is clear

if you dont do that in leetcode interview - you will not make it, or you will be graded as junior/entry level engineer.

No senior engineer will be passed without doing what you described during the leetcode interview

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#199

Post by TaylorAlexander »

zerr wrote: post #114
intelVISA wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can confirm, it's as simple PG says "just build something people want" it will open many doors :)

Why would you want to become a wage slave if you've already built something that people want (thus can monetize it yourself)?

Running your own business kinda sucks. I did it and failed and it was extremely painful. Now I’m building my dream product working for a philanthropist who pays my wages. SO MUCH easier than doing it myself.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#200

Post by kaashif »

pphysch wrote: post #185
marliechiller wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have written countless programs but would not be able to answer that without first turning to google. You might have screened out plenty of valid applicants with this

You don't know how to transform the string "12345" to "12346" in a mainstream PL? I don't think "valid applicant" and "doesn't really grok strings/types" are compatible, outside of intern/maybe junior positions. The filter works.

If someone really can't do that, then either they don't know how to count (very unlikely), they didn't understand the question, or they are really bad at translating what they would do on paper into a program. All disqualifying.

Another possibility is nerves. Early in my career I was very nervous in interviews and I have sympathy. I have fucked up the most basic search algorithms completely and spewed gibberish when asked to explain the complexity of my solution.

I have sympathy for that, but the only way to get through interview nerves is exposure therapy. At least in my experience.

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