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Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor

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Re: Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dramatically low basically equals the single color refresh rate multiplied by the number of base colors used to form color images.

No. Much worse. Think 30 seconds for a 7-color display. (B&w can do under one second)

This is outdated and only true for older ACeP displays. The Gallery 3 screen can refresh fast enough (~1.5sec) to be usable in an e-note with color:

https://youtu.be/V3jmmo23J5w?t=1202

And since it's true multi-color, it can refresh even faster by simply disabling the colors and refreshing in B&W (very slightly slower than monochrome screens though).

Re: Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor

#192
post #69

Do not miss an important detail: it is Kaleido. It means, it uses an overlaid colour filter matrix (RGBW, if I remember correctly). This allows for the comparatively high refresh rates of B/W EPD, but it is B/W EPD with a semi-transparent multi-tinted layer on top, which obviously impacts the brightness. (The alternative would be multi-pigmented EPD cells - "Advanced Color E-Paper"... Which suffers from dramatically…

Dramatically low basically equals the single color refresh rate multiplied by the number of base colors used to form color images.

This is no longer true - Gallery 3 screens are ACEP that can refresh in a second and a half. For instance the Bigme Galy is an e-reader based on the Gallery 3, and [as you can see](https://youtu.be/V3jmmo23J5w?t=1202) is perfectly functional for interactive use.

It's still slightly higher than monochrome, but only by milliseconds. IMO, fast-ACeP is the future and will eventually kill CFA/Kaleido.

Re: Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor

#193
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a remarkable 2 and use it to read PDF and e-books. e-pub was slow, so I use PDF. It doesn't have to phone home or use the cloud, which is sort of refreshing. I have never hooked it into any network or even bothered updating the software. I use USB which becomes a network interface, then connect to http://10.11.99.1/ and drag/drop files. This is all local. No built-in lighting, but it works great with a reading…

Epub is basically just html, so it being slow on remarkable is pretty damning for the device.

I believe it converts ePubs to PDF and so doing things like adjusting the font size requires rerendering the whole document.

Re: Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor

#194
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think eInk will ever be capable of video-like refresh rates. It's had plenty of benefits, but refresh rates may never catch up. I have a secondary monitor dedicated to Slack, Teams, and Outlook. That would be perfect for this as it doesn't update often and the content is mostly static.

I don’t know that there is any technical reason why e-ink can’t develop a better refresh rate to match what we are used to, at least theoretically. I don’t think its refresh rates are capped in that way. The real problem is cost of course. Part of that is e-ink is still governed under a patent you must license and pay royalties to if I recall correctly

>The real problem is cost of course. Part of that is e-ink is still governed under a patent you must license and pay royalties to if I recall correctly

This is a common myth that's echoed without a source. It's not patent, it's scale - there are literally 6 billion (LCD) smartphone users out in the world (it might be up to 7B by now), with lots of those users owning multiple smartphones. And of course, there are loads of other devices with LCDs: laptops, desktop monitors, TVs, self-checkout kiosks at supermarkets, smartwatches, tablets, LCDs on a fridge for some reason, etc etc etc.

E-ink is orders of magnitude lower in production scale, without a clear way of expanding the market beyond just ereaders/enotes (which are a luxury; you can read ebooks on a smartphone/tablet and most people own one of those already), and possibly supermarket smart-pricetags.

So, does that mean E-ink faces zero competition? No! DES screens are competing against e-ink with their cofferdam tech (where instead of sprinkling on microcapsules, they capsule structure is built directly onto the substrate; it reduces thickness and theoretically increases pixel density, but loses the "grain" effect of E-Ink's MED in favor of a less-aesthetic regular grid shape).

If E-Ink could improve refresh rates then they absolutely would - it's the most visible feature they could possibly add, and is directly applicable to e-readers, which are currently their biggest market. And their biggest buyer is Amazon, who have poured a whole lot of money into the tech (and who sell Kindles at-cost or below) and if it really were patents blocking faster-refreshing screens then Amazon would just buy E-Ink, outright. It's not new - look up LiquaVista; they were bought up by Amazon, Amazon's not afraid to buy up companies. Plus, E-Ink still have to compete against second-hand e-readers they've already sold; there are E-readers from 2012 that will read a .epub just fine, and that's all you really need for an e-reader.

If you're wondering why Amazon killed LiquaVista, BTW, apparently it's because shrinking the pixels horizontally causes a chromatic aberration effect when the vertical color-layers are viewed from an angle, so shrinking the pixels horizontally also requires shrinking them vertically, which makes it extremely difficult to manufacture the pixels without them leaking and causing a terribly low yield rate. Also it didn't help that a bunch of the original company's VC raising was done just before 2008.

Re: Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can, but satisfactory text editors on Android can be hard to find. No issue with a large enough EPD tablet, a BT keyboard, a good text editor, good configuration and your ability to adapt to the system (latency etc.)

If you install termux you can use micro or vim.

If you install Termux there is a chance that you can install a full Desktop Manager and windowed applications (accessible through local VNC).

Re: Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also don't support USB OTG on the main port, so you can't even use a wired keyboard. They only just recently released a keyboard case that uses the Pogo pins on the side, but it's $200!! There was an abandoned(?) attempt to enable OTG. The hardware supported acting as USB host, but couldn't supply 5v so you needed a powered hub as well as a wired keyboard. But, the software support for text input is absolutely h…

all these designs prove that rm2 is the worst product I have ever seen

It's a pretty good product with some mediocre software.

At the end of the day, it's extremely useful and usable for a lot of people doing a wide variety of tasks.

The hardware has some issues, but I'd say it's like 90% there. The software features that work well are rather limited, but that's an intentional design decision.

It has some limitations, but I consider it a rather good product.

Re: Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dramatically low basically equals the single color refresh rate multiplied by the number of base colors used to form color images.

This is no longer true - Gallery 3 screens are ACEP that can refresh in a second and a half. For instance the Bigme Galy is an e-reader based on the Gallery 3, and [as you can see]( https://youtu.be/V3jmmo23J5w?t=1202 ) is perfectly functional for interactive use. It's still slightly higher than monochrome, but only by milliseconds. IMO, fast-ACeP is the future and will eventually kill CFA/Kaleido.

Seems to me it remains largely true, just with much smaller numbers.

That screen is nice! Real progress being made there.

Re: Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dramatically low basically equals the single color refresh rate multiplied by the number of base colors used to form color images.

You seem to be suggesting "a collection of pigmented subcells similar to the traditional B/W cell". ACeP works differently: the pigments are in a single cell, and it is a matter of different densities, size, speed, electrical sensitivity per material (per pigment) that determines the procedure ("waveform") to obtain the wanted colour in a pixel. So, it does not seem linear at all.

That was based on my tests with color displays from Waveshare, and as we have seen in the comments here, advances have been made.

I still see multiple refresh cycles being needed for colors. The metrics are shorter, smaller on the very latest displays, and in my view fall short of motion capable in color.

We do have, and have had, motion capable monochrome for a while now, given users accept a few trade-offs.

Re: Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor

#199
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think eInk will ever be capable of video-like refresh rates. It's had plenty of benefits, but refresh rates may never catch up. I have a secondary monitor dedicated to Slack, Teams, and Outlook. That would be perfect for this as it doesn't update often and the content is mostly static.

I don’t know that there is any technical reason why e-ink can’t develop a better refresh rate to match what we are used to, at least theoretically. I don’t think its refresh rates are capped in that way. The real problem is cost of course. Part of that is e-ink is still governed under a patent you must license and pay royalties to if I recall correctly

> e-ink is still governed under a patent you must license and pay royalties to if I recall correctly

Recall correctly meaning you were involved and have direct knowledge or meaning you read it as an unsubstantiated comment somewhere here?

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