Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture • Hacker News Board

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#191

Post by skissane » Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 5:18 AM UTC

EvgeniyZh wrote: post #190

smsm42 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not at all what happened. What actually happened is that the parliament slightly restricted the number of reasons the Supreme Court is allowed to use to overrule decisions of the government. Since Israel has no Constitution (it has some Basic Laws, but they don't cover much) the Supreme Court has been increasingly intervening into politics - including appointments, government decisions, policies, etc. - much…

I would mention that there is basically zero separation between executive and legislative powers in Israel (to form the government to need to have majority in Knesset and you get to choose all the ministers). Reducing the power of the only independent branch in this case is highly questionable to say the least

> I would mention that there is basically zero separation between executive and legislative powers in Israel (to form the government to need to have majority in Knesset and you get to choose all the ministers).

That’s standard for the parliamentary system. Israel in that is fundamentally no different from the UK, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Greece - actually most countries in Europe (where parliamentary systems are the rule and semi-presidential systems such as France or Russia are the exception)

> Reducing the power of the only independent branch in this case is highly questionable to say the least

The UK government has done it before, many times. Most recent example I am aware of is the Dissolution and Calling of Parliament Act 2022, which stripped from the Courts the power to review the legality of prorogations or dissolutions of Parliament. In English law, this is called an “ouster clause”, and is nothing new - historically significant examples include the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Act 1946, and the Foreign Compensation Act 1950. In the US, the same idea is called “jurisdiction-stripping”; a famous example is the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#192

Post by vel0city » Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 5:40 AM UTC

mjamil wrote: post #183

vel0city wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really arguing that this hasn't happened many, many times in the past and yet people still take professorships at public universities and schools? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin This case wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for a prof getting attacked by the state for stating something in a classroom. It's happened many times in the past too. Note this was the first time any court said there w…

Yes, I was really arguing that. Thank you for correcting me. My incorrect belief was based on too myopic a view (I’m in the Ninth Circuit’s jurisdiction and forget sometimes that the rest of the country exists) and too broad an assertion (that all speech related to teaching is protected). The case you pointed to was about speech “that criticizes policies and decisions of university administrations” and grants relief…

> is there a holding where the case was simply about the subject matter and not criticism of administration policy?

There is case law, yes.

https://casetext.com/case/vega-v-miller

I'm not familiar with exactly the comments which were said, so I can't really say what exactly happened. But there's definitely been many times in the past, many times that probably never resulted in some big legal battle that people wrote a lot about, where a professor was censured for how they conducted their classroom.

That said, I'm not really arguing TAMU/The State of Texas is in the moral right here. I'm definitely down to not give them the benefit of the doubt in this instance, but just hearing the idea that a non-tenured? professor said something potentially really bad that ultimately cost them their job, doesn't really strike me as something impossible and entirely without precedent. Things are different when you're a government employee and you're on the clock, often for good reason. Not that censuring professors for speaking potentially factual statements is a good reason though.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#193

Post by skissane » Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 7:55 AM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #175

ceejayoz wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears to be referencing this: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-22/ty-article/.p... > The Knesset advanced a slew of proposals through preliminary readings on Wednesday – most notably the bill to enshrine the judicial override clause, which would permit the Knesset to override Supreme Court decisions by a very slim majority of 61 votes in the 120-seat parliament, effectively revoking its power to strik…

Thanks for the link. This is certainly a different bill, and not the one that has been recently passed. As such, it indeed looks quite ridiculous and reaching too far and basically makes Supreme Court completely powerless - because the government controls 61 votes by default, otherwise it falls. But it is not passed yet. If it does pass, then there's a reason to worry that the judicial review has been seriously impac…

> Thanks for the link. This is certainly a different bill, and not the one that has been recently passed. As such, it indeed looks quite ridiculous and reaching too far and basically makes Supreme Court completely powerless - because the government controls 61 votes by default, otherwise it falls

Even supposing that law passes, how would it make Israel any different from the UK or New Zealand, in both of which almost any decision of the Supreme Court can be overturned with mere ordinary legislation. [0]

I don’t understand this heated rhetoric claiming it is the “death of Israeli democracy”-to be consistent, people who claim that would also have to say that the UK and New Zealand are not democracies

[0] New Zealand requires a referendum for certain changes to election law, so there are limits to the ability of Parliament to overturn court decisions in that specific area

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#194

Post by rsynnott » Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 9:22 AM UTC

rawgabbit wrote: post #166

rsynnott wrote: post #123

> The Texas A&M University professor had just returned home from giving a routine lecture on the opioid crisis at the University of Texas Medical Branch in March when she learned a student had accused her of disparaging Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick during the talk. Very Soviet. Is this a weird Texas thing, or is it normal for American universities? It's virtually impossible to imagine here; universities are more or less grou…

Texas A&M is the very conservative public university of Texas. It started as a male military academy with the purpose of graduates entering the US military. The Aggies favorite son is Earl Rudder who commanded troops during the invasion of Normandy. UT Austin is the liberal public university in TX. It was famous for its hippies back in the 60s.

So, my mental model of American conservatism (I'm not American) was always that they were _relatively_ thick-skinned as right-wingers go; George W took a fair bit of public criticism, say, without seeming to get particularly upset about it. Trump didn't react well to criticism, obviously, but he's kind of a baby, and a bit of a special case; extremely privileged and not a career politician. I've got to say I'm kind of surprised that the rank and file are so sensitive; I kind of thought this was largely _gone_ in western democracy. Feels very, very old-fashioned (or, as mentioned, Soviet).

I sometimes wonder if I'm missing something fundamental about how Americans think. This behaviour would be interpreted (beyond being anti-democratic, but parts of the right wing won't necessarily care about that) as showing extreme weakness here. Like, to the extent that a politician wouldn't do it, even if they _could_, because would be very politically damaging; "my opponent is a weird baby" is a stupid talking point to hand to your opponent.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#195

Post by AlgorithmicTime » Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 12:28 PM UTC

JohnMakin wrote: post #55

marcusverus wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget California, where faculty is effectively required to engage in progressive political speech! https://archive.is/VDNPj

[flagged]

[dead]

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#196

Post by justin66 » Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 2:03 PM UTC

skissane wrote: post #193

smsm42 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link. This is certainly a different bill, and not the one that has been recently passed. As such, it indeed looks quite ridiculous and reaching too far and basically makes Supreme Court completely powerless - because the government controls 61 votes by default, otherwise it falls. But it is not passed yet. If it does pass, then there's a reason to worry that the judicial review has been seriously impac…

> Thanks for the link. This is certainly a different bill, and not the one that has been recently passed. As such, it indeed looks quite ridiculous and reaching too far and basically makes Supreme Court completely powerless - because the government controls 61 votes by default, otherwise it falls Even supposing that law passes, how would it make Israel any different from the UK or New Zealand, in both of which almost…

> I don’t understand this heated rhetoric claiming it is the “death of Israeli democracy”-to be consistent, people who claim that would also have to say that the UK and New Zealand are not democracies

I'm not trying to be harsh but it's weird how frequently this (badly offtopic) subthread has been speculative, when there are plenty of Israeli newspapers wherein the reasons for the rift in Israel are discussed to the nth degree... in English... by people who know what they're talking about.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#197

Post by burnte » Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 2:39 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #162

burnte wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> How is one "forced" to participate when all DEI really means is "the fair treatment and full participation of all people" As I already proven, it does not. > What's wrong with building a society that realizes wheelchair ramps are good, and stairs alone are exclusive? I think some people would object to equating race with disability, but that is between you and your VP DEI . But yes, I think forcing people to advoca…

> How is one "forced" to participate when all DEI really means is "the fair treatment and full participation of all people"

> As I already proven, it does not.

With respect, no you didn't. You gave someone else's personal opinion on something beyond DEI.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#198

Post by rawgabbit » Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 3:22 PM UTC

rsynnott wrote: post #194

rawgabbit wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texas A&M is the very conservative public university of Texas. It started as a male military academy with the purpose of graduates entering the US military. The Aggies favorite son is Earl Rudder who commanded troops during the invasion of Normandy. UT Austin is the liberal public university in TX. It was famous for its hippies back in the 60s.

So, my mental model of American conservatism (I'm not American) was always that they were _relatively_ thick-skinned as right-wingers go; George W took a fair bit of public criticism, say, without seeming to get particularly upset about it. Trump didn't react well to criticism, obviously, but he's kind of a baby, and a bit of a special case; extremely privileged and not a career politician. I've got to say I'm kind o…

I can't speak on modern American conservatism as I am not one. Looking from the outside, I would chalk this one up as part of the culture wars that is fueling the conservative movement, rage against "critical race theory" etc.

FWIW, George HW Bush is buried next to the Texas A&M main campus. There is also a school of foreign policy named after him there. Both Bushes, the father and son, cultivated an image of a likable goof, even if you differed with their politics, were someone you could go to a baseball game with and shoot the breeze over a couple of beers. The modern conservative movement is not like that.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#199

Post by smsm42 » Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #196

skissane wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thanks for the link. This is certainly a different bill, and not the one that has been recently passed. As such, it indeed looks quite ridiculous and reaching too far and basically makes Supreme Court completely powerless - because the government controls 61 votes by default, otherwise it falls Even supposing that law passes, how would it make Israel any different from the UK or New Zealand, in both of which almost…

> I don’t understand this heated rhetoric claiming it is the “death of Israeli democracy”-to be consistent, people who claim that would also have to say that the UK and New Zealand are not democracies I'm not trying to be harsh but it's weird how frequently this (badly offtopic) subthread has been speculative, when there are plenty of Israeli newspapers wherein the reasons for the rift in Israel are discussed to the…

It is true that Israeli newspapers - and non-Israeli ones - discuss it at length, and it is also true that the current crisis is a successor and the consequence of many historical developments and controversies, taking root before the state has been even established. This is exactly why one familiar with the history and the background of the question learns to take claims like “death of Israeli democracy” with a big dose of skepticism. It is true that some changes are happening, and it is true many aren't happy with them, but it's very far from the claims like the one that started this thread.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#200

Post by appplication » Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 3:56 PM UTC

bozhark wrote: post #84

Animats wrote: post #26

Crackdowns on free speech are increasing worldwide. Afghanistan, Russia, China, Hong Kong, Florida, Texas... Israel just reached the using fire hoses on protestors level.[1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/25/world/middleeast/israel-j...

Israel just removed their judicial branches ability to review government actions. The hose just got a lot bigger.

Just leaving another comment to warn that there is a lot of “don’t believe your eyes and ears” argumentation going on in the other sub threads to this comment.

I’m not sure this is something you can flag comments for, but I don’t think that type of argument, regardless of how eloquently stated, is appropriate for HN.