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Software engineers hate code

dancowell.com

191–200 of 235 posts

Re: Software engineers hate code

#191
Why is this much more true of programmers than writers[1]? To what extent is it true of "proper" engineering disciplines?

[1] A couple of people here doubt it being true. It is though, and I say that as someone who enjoys reading interesting code. A good case in point is this great, probing interview by Peter Seibel of Hal Abelson:

https://gigamonkeys.com/code-quarterly/2011/hal-abelson/

Abelson: Read a lot of good code. That’s the real issue—that people don’t read code.

[...]

Seibel: I want to dig a little deeper on this. You, like many other people, say programmers should read code. Yet when I ask what code have you read for fun or edification, you—also like many other people—answer that you read students’ code, which is your job, and review code at Google, which is also your job. But it doesn’t sound like you sit down of an evening with a nice printout and read it.

Abelson: Not for a long time.

I can't imagine a professional writer answering like this.

Re: Software engineers hate code

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm similar, and I've found AI to help with this. I'm able to guide the AI to write the first draft, then I go in and rewrite it. It's helped remove that frustration at the first draft.

What model do you use for this?

Depends on what I’m writing. For anything vanilla I use the chatgpt site Ui. For anything that maybe censored like smut I use prompt engineering and gpt 3.5 turbo via api to get past the censors, although they just announced this model is to be deprecated in January so I’m playing with local language models to some success. For now been using gpt4all and it’s surprisingly good, although slow on my hardware.

Re: Software engineers hate code

#193
post #130

sturgeon’s law applies. most of the time they are right to. put another way, 90% of code is a liability, 10% of code is an asset. i’m not sure any code ever moved from one group to the other, though good ideas may be stolen sans code. greenfield is the only way to grow that 10%. it’s the reason startups exist. it’s like all the failed rewrites. those engineers gained knowledge and fitness through that failure. if the…

Rewrites are a phenomenal way to sprint through an incredible number of Chestersons fences. That is one way to find out why they are there though it’s just a bit more expensive

if you don’t deploy them, their cost goes to zero!

assuming the spent engineering hours would have been wasted elsewhere anyway.

ymmv.

Re: Software engineers hate code

#194
Only junior software engineers hate other peoples code. The progression of a skilled software engineer starts with writing code, then reading code, then writing code in the context of others code. The more you work the more crucial it is to be able to operate in a zone of non ownership in the code base, your value really unlocks when you can sniff code and improve it without rewriting it. At this stage 30y into my career I can step into a completely foreign code base and make material improvements quickly in situ, and sometimes have to do it several times a day. I don’t mind other peoples code - in fact I learn an awful lot of cool things spelunking!

I tend to avoid the “let’s rewrite it” engineers - they’re usually going that route due to lack of practice and skill in developing software. There are times for sure a rewrite is necessary, but IMO it’s sort of like blaming the compiler for build errors. Usually it’s not the compiler, it’s you. But rarely there’s a compiler bug and you’re justified in asserting it as such. Likewise, rarely does code need to be rewritten, you are just unskilled at code surgery - so practice. When you have practiced enough you’ll see that the initial revulsion you felt at their code was mostly your brain reacting to the unknown. The people who wrote that code are often as good or better than you, and understood the domain a lot better if you’re new to the code base. Show a bit of respect for those who came before and learn to learn.

Re: Software engineers hate code

#195
post #8

> This is the best-kept secret of the software engineering profession: engineers hate code. Especially code written by other people. It's why they love working on greenfield projects so much. No code, no maintenance, no headaches! Except that I've met lots of engineers who were the opposite. They hate greenfield projects and prefer maintaining existing code. I noticed this broad division of personality early in my ca…

I like greenfield projects but I also have the problem where a blank page gives me writer's block. Sometimes "like" doesn't go far enough.

It seems like this is a good opportunity for LLMs…

A related problem is that "maintenance" is conflated with editing code, but IME some languages especially """bug free""" would prefer you rewrite every time you make a change rather than edit things, because the code becomes impossible to understand after it has more than one author.

Re: Software engineers hate code

#196

sturgeon’s law applies. most of the time they are right to. put another way, 90% of code is a liability, 10% of code is an asset. i’m not sure any code ever moved from one group to the other, though good ideas may be stolen sans code. greenfield is the only way to grow that 10%. it’s the reason startups exist. it’s like all the failed rewrites. those engineers gained knowledge and fitness through that failure. if the…

68% of all random-ass percentage laws are crap.

Re: Software engineers hate code

#197

sturgeon’s law applies. most of the time they are right to. put another way, 90% of code is a liability, 10% of code is an asset. i’m not sure any code ever moved from one group to the other, though good ideas may be stolen sans code. greenfield is the only way to grow that 10%. it’s the reason startups exist. it’s like all the failed rewrites. those engineers gained knowledge and fitness through that failure. if the…

68% of all random-ass percentage laws are crap.

68 < 90. technically correct.

Re: Software engineers hate code

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again” - Six, BSG.

Filching from Nietzsche, scriptwriters are lazy bums.

By that logic Nietzsche was also a lazy bum.

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return

Re: Software engineers hate code

#200
post #161
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am one of those who prefer working on existing code. I like making things better, understanding how a code works is thrill, adding new features on existing premises. I am also an amateur fiction writer, and I notice the same thing in it. I like planning, but the first draft writing is a chore to me. An effort to vomit all my ideas as words. Then, I love rewriting. Revisiting what I wrote and improving it, fixing it…

How do you find job postings for these types of jobs? Any keywords to look for? And how do you interview for them? I don't want level 3 support or on-call rotation, just established software that needs diagnostics, bug fixes and upgrades. I guess you just have to apply and ask in the interview.

That's the dream! I think it won't work at most public companies unless you end up in a department with a dead-end product whose raison d'être is to keep one or two whale customers happy.

I have a friend who does migration tools that help businesses move their data from ancient versions of software that the big players don't support any more. It's a niche, but it's a niche that banking/insurance/etc customers are willing to pay for. I've applied for jobs like this and never even made it to the screening call. When I asked how she got the job, it was through a former colleague of hers. I actually interviewed with that colleague at a different company several years prior and I heard from her that his impression of me was that I would be bored in the role. So I think it's really important to emphasize to the hiring manager that it is exactly what you are looking for, especially if you have a background in more "hip" companies.

If the "boring" companies don't call you back, my recommendation would still be to look for B2B software, or an internal/tooling-focused team where your customers are your colleagues. It has to be on a product that is already profitable (or seen internally as valuable) so that you don't get pressured into adding new features or having the whole product killed from under you. Ideally a company that is not on the IPO track. There are some maintenance roles to be found in these "hip" companies, but they're rare, and I think you have to accept that you might only be able to fly under the radar for a year or two until an ambitious executive comes along who wants to reorg the department into a boondoggle production line.

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