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AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years?

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Re: AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years?

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, but arguably civilization consists of mechanisms to manage human fallibility Exactly. Civilization is, arguably, one big exercise in reducing variance in individuals, as low variance and high predictability is what lets us work together and trust each other, instead of seeing each other as threats and hiding from each other (or trying to preemptively attack). The more something or someone is unpredictable, the…

I think you’re weighting the contribution of authority a bit too highly. The bad actors to be concerned about are a very small percentage of the population and we do need institutions with authority to keep those people at bay but it’s not like there’s this huge pool of “high variance” people that need to be screened out. The vast majority of people are extremely close in both opinion and ability, any semblance of so…

> it’s not like there’s this huge pool of “high variance” people that need to be screened out. The vast majority of people are extremely close in both opinion and ability, any semblance of society would be impossible otherwise.

Yes, but I'm saying it's not an accident - I've mentioned mechanisms like culture, social customs, and education, which we've been using in some form for all our recorded history. I should've probably added violent conflicts within and between tribes/groups, too, which also acted to reduce variance, by culling the more volatile and less agreeable people. People today are "extremely close in both opinion and ability" because for the past couple thousands years, generation by generation, we've been busy reducing the variance of individuals.

EDIT: keeping high-variance individuals locked up safely away is just one of the methods we use, specifically to deal with outliers. It too traces back to the dawn of recorded history - shunning, expelling individuals from the tribe (which often meant certain death), sending them to faraway lands, or forcing them into war, were other common means past societies used to eliminate high-variance outliers.

As for authority, it's a separate topic - I argue that hierarchical governance is an artifact of scale: it's necessary to coordinate groups past certain size (~Dunbar's number), when our basic social intuitions are no longer up to the task. But the first level of hierarchy can handle only so many people, and if you want to coordinate multiple such groups, you need to add another layer... and that's how, over time, human societies scaled from tribes of couple dozen people, to nation states of hundreds of millions.

Even as the focus is usually on the national governments, the entire hierarchy is still there - you have states and lands/vovoidships/counties with their own governance, then another level for a major city and surrounding villages, then yet another level in each individual village, and one or two levels in the city itself, etc. We don't often pay attention to it, but the hierarchy of governance does reach down, in some form, all the way to groups of couple hundred people or less.

Re: AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years?

#192
Chat UI/UX is a tool for experts. To drive this point home consider a user prompting "produce a founder agreement document", for which the AI will happily produce -something-. Even thought he user is able to read the document he does not understand the contents in "legal" terms. In contrast if the user would go to an expert lawyer, who would start by asking the user some relevant questions (=domain questions) and put together a prompt tailored to the needs and circumstances of the user in the domain language, with all relevant nuances..

I am working to create this experience by augmenting the AI interaction with step-by-step leading questions and interaction UI, similar to how users would interact with a domain expert.

https://pth.ai Would love feedback! :)

Re: AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years?

#193
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not be exactly what you envisioned, but that's where the difference comes in: with a batch processing system, you generate something over night with one input. With command processing systems you generate something with dozens or hundreds of individual commands, and it might still not be what you want. With AI systems you generate something with one action, allowing you much faster iteration loops. Remember,…

The current systems do let you iterate, that’s why they use a chat interface. Has everyone just been firing off a single request and then giving up if the first response isn’t perfect?

The system lets you iterate, but you don't have to iterate to arrive at the result you want. Is that really so hard to understand?

There is no magic "paint the picture I want" button in Photoshop. There is a magic button in AI tools. This magic button does in one request what would take dozens or hundreds of commands without the magic button.

Re: AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years?

#194

> With this new UI paradigm, represented by current generative AI, the user tells the computer the desired result but does not specify how this outcome should be accomplished. This doesn't seem like a whole new paradigm, we already do that. When I hit the "add comment" button below, I'm not specifically instructing the web server how I want my comment inserted into a database (if it even is a database at all.) This i…

Under the new UI paradigm the ad comment button would let you submit something like “I disagree with this, provide a three paragraph argument that cites X and Y refuting this claim” and it would write the text for you.

Why bother with the micromanagement? "Computer, waste time commenting on Hacker News for three hours."

Re: AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years?

#195
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current systems do let you iterate, that’s why they use a chat interface. Has everyone just been firing off a single request and then giving up if the first response isn’t perfect?

The system lets you iterate, but you don't have to iterate to arrive at the result you want. Is that really so hard to understand? There is no magic "paint the picture I want" button in Photoshop. There is a magic button in AI tools. This magic button does in one request what would take dozens or hundreds of commands without the magic button.

>This magic button does in one request what would take dozens or hundreds of commands without the magic button.

It very rarely does. And the more specific the request, the more work you have to do to get, at best, close to what you want. You may need to train your own model or blend models and mess with ControlNet. And then you have to do more work to fix stuff like fingers and eyes. In order to really use AI to its full potential (which still isn't, IMO, fully up to the capabilities of the software or artists it's intended to replace) you have to understand how it works, how the various filters work, how models work, etc.

Once you learn most of the really good AI generated art you find online is still heavily edited in Photoshop by actual artists you realize it's anything but magic.

Re: AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years?

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both of those are systems which had to work right. Large language models are not even close to being safe to use in such applications. Until LLMs report "don't know" instead of hallucinating, they're limited to very low risk applications such as advertising and search. Are humans limited to low-risk applications like that? Because humans, even some of the most humble, will still assert things they THINK are true, b…

Can people please stop making this comment in reply to EVERY criticism of LLMs? "Humans are flawed too". We do not normally hallucinate. We are sometimes wrong, and sometimes are wrong about the confidence they should attach to their knowledge. But we do not simply hallucinate and spout fully confidence nonsense constantly. That is what LLMs. You remember a few isolated incidents because they're salient. That does no…

[deleted]

Re: AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years?

#197
post #195
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system lets you iterate, but you don't have to iterate to arrive at the result you want. Is that really so hard to understand? There is no magic "paint the picture I want" button in Photoshop. There is a magic button in AI tools. This magic button does in one request what would take dozens or hundreds of commands without the magic button.

>This magic button does in one request what would take dozens or hundreds of commands without the magic button. It very rarely does. And the more specific the request, the more work you have to do to get, at best, close to what you want. You may need to train your own model or blend models and mess with ControlNet. And then you have to do more work to fix stuff like fingers and eyes. In order to really use AI to its…

Come on...

>> This magic button does in one request what would take dozens or hundreds of commands without the magic button.

> It very rarely does.

No, it always does. You don't have to press the button 45 times in the morning and 67 times in the afternoon and 24 in the evening. You press it once, and you get a result.

What you read was: "This magic button does in one click what you want". That is not what I wrote, and not what the author argues.

> And the more specific the request, the more work you have to do to get, at best, close to what you want. You may need to train your own model or blend models and mess with ControlNet. And then you have to do more work to fix stuff like fingers and eyes.

Yes, you're repeating the author's point well: the current systems have bad usability in regards to how a user expresses their intentions. That does not change that the system produces one complex result with one button click.

Re: AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years?

#198
post #170
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You put into words the things I've noticed UIs evolving away from. It just feels like UIs of software 10,20, even 30 years ago were designed for "operators", people that actually worked with the software for hours at end, and so with a little bit of learning you could be dancing with keybindings and doing stuff as fast as CLI nerds. Nowadays most seems to be optimized for first hour of use of new user and not much el…

Downside is nowadays in office setting one has to operate 20+ different applications to get work done. While as operator you would spend more like 80% of your time using the same interface and application. I could spend my time to type 100WPM but I am not a typist - as a software dev it is quite enough to go with 40-60WPM because it is just small part of my work.

> Downside is nowadays in office setting one has to operate 20+ different applications to get work done.

Like ? Even as a developer I'm not consistently using 20 different "big apps". 2 chat programs, IDE, terminal, mail client, wireshark, maybe some GUI DB tool if I feel lazy that day

> I could spend my time to type 100WPM but I am not a typist - as a software dev it is quite enough to go with 40-60WPM because it is just small part of my work.

Not really about wpm but ability to hit few shortcuts to get where I want instead of navigating thru 4 different panels to get to the one option I need

Re: AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years?

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hallucinations will be tamed, I think. I don't think that's likely unless there was a latent space of "Truth" which could be discovered through the right model. That would be a far more revolutionary discovery than anyone can possibly imagine. For starters the last 300+ years of Western Philosophy would be essentially proven unequivocally wrong. edit: If you're going to downvote this please elaborate. LLMs currentl…

They may not be a surface directly encoding the "truth" value, but unless we assume that the training data LLMs are trained on are entirely uncorrelated with the truth, there should be a surface that's close enough . I don't think the assumption that LLM training data is random with respect to truth value is reasonable - people don't write random text for no reason at all. Even if the current training corpus was too…

I think this is a misunderstanding of what would be necessary for an LLM to only output truth.

Let's imagine there does exist a function for evaluating truth - it takes in a statement and produces whether that statement is "true" (whatever "true" means). Let's also say it does that perfectly.

We train the LLM. We keep training it, and training it, and training it, and we eventually get a set of weights where our eval runs only make it produce statements where the truth-function says they are truthful.

We deploy the LLM. It's given an input that wasn't part of the evaluation set. We have no guarantee at all that the output will be true. The weights we chose for the LLM during the training process are a serendipitous accident: we observed that they produced truthy output in the scenarios we tested. Scenarios we didn't test _probably_ produce truthy output, but in all likelihood some will not, and we have no mathematical guarantee.

This remains the case even if you have a perfect truth function, and remains true if you use deterministic inference (always the most likely token). Your comment goes even further than that and asserts that a mostly-accurate function is good enough.

Re: AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years?

#200

Bardini's book about Doug Engelbart recaps a conversation between Engelbart and Minsky about the nature of natural language interfaces... that took place in the 1960s. AI interfaces taking so long has less to do with the technology (I mean... Zork understood my text sentences well enough to get me around a simulated world) and more to do with what people are comfortable with. Lowey talked about MAYA (Most Advanced Ye…

In Jaron Lanier's review of John Markoff's book "What the Dormouse Said", he mentioned an exchange between Douglass Engelbart and Marvin Minsky:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110312232514/https://www.ameri...

>Engelbart once told me a story that illustrates the conflict succinctly. He met Marvin Minsky — one of the founders of the field of AI — and Minsky told him how the AI lab would create intelligent machines. Engelbart replied, "You're going to do all that for the machines? What are you going to do for the people?" This conflict between machine- and human-centered design continues to this day.

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