Rust: The wrong people are resigning • Hacker News Board

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#191

Post by andrewflnr » Sun, May 28, 2023, 9:35 PM UTC

serial_dev wrote: post #73

mort96 wrote: post #14

> Part of me is very disappointed in the enormous waste of time that is the “crablang” fork, and wishes the people involved could have engaged in a constructive manner instead. Any group who decides to fork Rust probably isn't in a position of power to turn the whole Rust Project and Rust Foundation into something less messy. Without knowing any of the specifics about this "crablang" fork, creating a well-resourced,…

I am surprised how people pretend to be outraged over a fork of an open source language. They are outraged by the fork because having a fork reach thousand stars so quickly made it harder to ignore the reality that people who love the language were fed up with the leadership. Forking is the essence of open source software. Don't like something somebody else is doing with a software? It's open source, so you do it you…

Forking is a huge resource sink, if it goes anywhere at all. It disrupts network effects that software benefits from. It is, if nothing else, leaving a local maximum of utility for everyone. In short, it's inconvenient, if not actually painful and heralds future inconvenience/pain. Anger may not be wise, depending on the specifics, but it should absolutely not be surprising.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#192

Post by kristoff_it » Sun, May 28, 2023, 9:36 PM UTC

> Part of me is very disappointed at ThePrimeagen, the Twitch streamer / YouTuber with whom I used to be friendly, for milking those controversies for every view and sub possible. For riling up the masses, adding fuel to the fire, creating the exact opposite of the climate we need to solve these issues.

Nobody wants to name the one guy who Secret Hitler'd the keynote, but man let's name call a streamer unaffiliated with the project as soon as we can because he read the original blog post on stream and said 'this is bad'.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#193

Post by mordae » Sun, May 28, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

pg_1234 wrote: post #156

twelfthnight wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. Feels like there is a lot of pressure these days that if you are part of a "bad" system then _you_ are bad, even if you are trying to improve it from the inside. So it's understandable people quit instead of taking on the burden of having to prove their "goodness", it's…

The "don't leave, stay and fix things from the inside" pitch is how the political schemers try to pull the tech talent back into an arena where they can be worn down into submission, so that their skills can be co-opted by those whose only real talent is to steal the productivity of others. The only way to free a project from such entrenched rot is an ultimatum; "You can have the builders or the schemers, but not bot…

Not just tech.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#194

Post by lolinder » Sun, May 28, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

Klonoar wrote: post #110

twelfthnight wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. Feels like there is a lot of pressure these days that if you are part of a "bad" system then _you_ are bad, even if you are trying to improve it from the inside. So it's understandable people quit instead of taking on the burden of having to prove their "goodness", it's…

> Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. You're kind of stating this as if nobody in the Rust ecosystem tries that approach first.

I took it as referring to the world in general, not Rust specifically. It happens every day in the news that someone loudly resigns to make their point. It's much less common that you see an article about how so-and-so spent five years of their life working hard to change a culture from the inside and finally is seeing results.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#195

Post by 29athrowaway » Sun, May 28, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

meindnoch wrote: post #86

d3nj4l wrote: post #8

In a way, I find this entire saga incredibly funny. There is so much hand wringing and pearl clutching at something that is supposedly in the shadows - this cabal of four or five people making decisions - that it makes the entire Rust "community" look juvenile. This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations!

>This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers Anime/furry culture has a significant overlap with the Rust community as far as I can tell as an outsider. E.g. there was that guy developing a Linux GPU driver for M1 Macs, narrating it with an anime "waifu" avatar and a speech plugin that makes you sound like a little girl from a Japanese cartoon.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26753812/

I guess if your passion is reverse engineering M1 macs and porting Linux to it, for free, there is a decent chance you are highly introverted and perhaps even a savant.

If you ask an average software engineer, or even a talented one to do it, most of them won't be able to crack the problem.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#196

Post by Klonoar » Sun, May 28, 2023, 9:40 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #194

Klonoar wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. You're kind of stating this as if nobody in the Rust ecosystem tries that approach first.

I took it as referring to the world in general, not Rust specifically. It happens every day in the news that someone loudly resigns to make their point. It's much less common that you see an article about how so-and-so spent five years of their life working hard to change a culture from the inside and finally is seeing results.

You can certainly try to view it that way, but I would submit that, at best, you're being overly charitable regarding interpretation when the very thread we're on is centered on discussing issues within the Rust ecosystem itself.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#197

Post by pdimitar » Sun, May 28, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

Oh come on already.

Start naming and shaming people, let the internet have its field day and let's all go home. We all know people will reconverge at one point anyway. We all also know that nobody will get harmed regardless of all the drama.

I expect much more from adult people. Go drink some tea and have a 3-hour walk with your dog or partner or a friend, deliberately don't touch the computer for 24h and let's see how differently you'll react.

Also, injecting identity politics in a programming language foundation has been a mistake from the get go. Sounds like opportunism.

My code of conduct would be "don't be an a-hole no matter what race or sexual orientation somebody has -- and anyone being a d-bag will get shown the door, no exceptions". That's plenty enough and most people out there have enough common sense to know what you mean when you say it.

Also can we recognize that forks of popular programming languages NEVER truly take off.

So yeah, take a few deep breaths, disengage for a while and you might be surprised of the different thoughts that come to you after.

Let's tone down the drama already, this already became super embarrassing for all parties.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#198

Post by fb03 » Sun, May 28, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

hotfixguru wrote: post #172

fb03 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty shitty move to single out ThePrimeagen. He has done more for the Rust community in raising awareness of bullshit and also educating people on the technical intricacies of Rust (much akin the Jon Gjengset videos) than a lot of these 'in' folks.

I wonder what he tries to achieve by calling him out. Seems like the only outcome is drama, and for what?

Yes, he called people out on 'generating drama' yet this is a drama generating move itself.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#199

Post by ltbarcly3 » Sun, May 28, 2023, 9:44 PM UTC

I don't want to add to the drama here, but I would suggest to Amos to just say what you want to say. If saying it would burn you to the point you would have to leave the community, find a way to say what you need to say to address the situation that doesn't burn you out of the community. If there is absolutely no way to address the issue where you aren't chased out then take a hard look at your own communication style, talk it out with trusted people who can give you perspective, and finally take a hard look at whether this is even a community that is worth being a part of.

Don't post a bunch of emotional, vague, unclear semi-accusations against people you won't even name. This is just adding to a bunch of drama with no possibility of any positive outcome.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#200

Post by lolinder » Sun, May 28, 2023, 9:46 PM UTC

lucasyvas wrote: post #142

bluejekyll wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I was able to reassure myself, by checking these private discussion places, that there were good people, fighting for the right thing to be done. That things weren’t irremediably broken. That there was hope for improvement in the near future.” From the linked article, that probably makes it clear that they believe Rust Leadership screwed up, and probably represents why naming individuals might not be helpful, and co…

Naming individuals is the best solution because it will create the appropriate infighting to resolve the issue. It will be a huge mess, but it will come to resolution sooner.

The people who are "in" enough to participate in "infighting" likely already know who's being referred to. Naming and shaming would just bring fire down on them from the wider internet, which depending on the personalities of those involved may have the opposite of the desired effect.