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Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

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Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#191

Post by vel0city »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #95
vel0city wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2019 Musk publicly stated Model 3's would support robotic taxi functionality in 2020.

> 2019 Musk publicly stated Model 3's would support robotic taxi functionality in 2020 No evidence these forecasts were made in bad faith. Delusion isn’t criminal. It’s mis-selling in the here and now, in absolute terms, in a way that causes damage, that is problematic.

He made the statement it made no financial sense to buy any other car than a Tesla because of the certainty of robo taxi functionality arriving in 2020. He sold people on the promise that their car would be revenue generating in 2020.

Everyone who bought a Tesla with FSD since 2019 should sue Elon for lost revenues from failing to deliver robo taxi functionality over three years late (and counting!) than originally stated.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#192

Post by pianoben »

explaininjs wrote: post #126
gumby wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want any elites getting special treatment either... These days I normally roll my eyes and stop reading when I encounter someone saying "the elites" but in this case it is 100% appropriate: she was a member of a wealthy elite, and both deliberately and casually used her connections from the get go.

Did you mean "causally"? Not sure the degree of formality is relevant.

As an idiom "casually used her connections" can mean "without due consideration" or "without compunction". It implies that "using her connections" was an easy and simple choice for her, as opposed to one in which she wrestled with the moral dimension.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#193

Post by 00F_ »

KindAndFriendly wrote: post #15

Reading this entire story, it baffles me that as of today I can still add a "Full Self-Driving Capability" option when ordering a Tesla.

wrong. watch the latest FSD videos. FSD has proved all the detractors wrong. it drives unbelievably well. and the rate of improvement is astounding. this comment might have been valid a few years ago but not anymore.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#194

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

asveikau wrote: post #181
KindAndFriendly wrote: post #15

Reading this entire story, it baffles me that as of today I can still add a "Full Self-Driving Capability" option when ordering a Tesla.

It's also baffling that she faces consequences for financial fraud and not the impact on patient health of knowingly giving faulty test results.

Yeah, I hate saying stuff like "it only matters when it hits the pockets of the rich" because it's reductive and cynical, but seriously - how are the patients not better protected here? How is that not the bigger story?

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#195

Post by JumpCrisscross »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #170
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nor can in the future do X We don’t know this. That’s the point.

Generally, when you don't know that a product definitely can do something, you don't sell it saying that it has the "capability" to do it. That's fraud.

> when you don't know that a product definitely can do something, you don't sell it saying that it has the "capability" to do it. That's fraud.

Capability is defined as "the facility or potential for an indicated use or deployment" [1]. There are other definitions. But selling capability based on future potential is not fraudulent, unless you say the capability is present.

[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capability emphasis mine

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#196

Post by from »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #139
sorokod wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well OK, how about a case where a convicted fraudster is unable to pay the financial penalty that was imposed on them?

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant people shouldn’t go to jail unless it’s violence, corruption or fraud. Then jail time should be on the table. (But never mandatory.)

What about receiving stolen property, perjury, campaign finance violations, etc? There are enough ethically flexible people out there and if you remove the major deterrent from doing these societally bad but nonviolent things I think occurrences of them would all increase a decent amount.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#197

Post by mchannon »

AlbertCory wrote: post #174
mchannon wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hucksters, almost all of them. They prey on the desperate. They preyed on my family.

I'm sure you're right, but the reason I know about them is that I do know a guy who used one, and got a "better" prison. No names, for obvious reasons.

While incarcerated, half the people "know a guy". Maybe the prison was "better", or maybe it was just a different mix of pros and cons.

Not only was the advice I received unhelpful, following it actually made my stay longer. My family would have been better off taking the substantial amount of money and setting it on fire.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#198

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

ok_dad wrote: post #84
LanceJones wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an FSD Beta user. If you stop reading at "Full Self Driving Capability", then yes, it's an issue for a potential purchaser. But if you read just a little bit more, it becomes more clear what you're buying. I don't feel "fooled" and neither do 1000s of other Beta testers with whom I regularly communicate on Discord.

> I'm an FSD Beta user... 1000s of other Beta testers Ah, so the hundreds of thousands or millions who bought FSD years ago should be happy that a few thousand of you get to test out a system with your own lives. Great. Edit: Don't bother responding if you're a Tesla or Elon fanboy/fangirl. I'm not interested in being insulted any longer by you folks.

Hey now, don't forget the lives of everyone else they are in traffic with. That increases the number of beta tested by an order of magnitude if you think about it.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#199

Post by notch898b »

JohnFen wrote: post #176
Alupis wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because there's probably a lot of eyeballs on her at this moment. She's probably the very definition of a flight risk I would imagine, given her personality, the scope of her crimes, and her previous attempt to flee. However, you make it sound like it's super difficult to disappear. It can be as simple as getting on a boat and sailing off into the night, or an airplane... no Hollywood plot necessary - no one woul…

Disappearing is easy. Staying disappeared is much more difficult, particularly if you are interested in living even a moderately normal life.

I mean for her yeah. The average guy wanted on a felony for stealing cars or something, could probably be fine working as an agricultural worker on a farm in Brazil or something for the rest of their life. I've met plenty of white euro looking people in South America living off the black market and frankly no one would bother to find out who they were unless their were some big reward, and usually there isn't.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#200

Post by jcampbell1 »

ok_dad wrote: post #188
LanceJones wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 400,000+ Beta users currently (US and Canada). You are being fooled by the headlines. The people in the EU have a legitimate beef (not being able to use the functionality). "test a system with our own lives" is silly hyperbole and you know it.

> "test a system with our own lives" is silly hyperbole and you know it. No, I actually believe that, because I have some morals and ethics around introducing dangerous and untested black-box AI into a several-ton machine with no physical consrtaints as to it's location (aka: a moving car), as in I wouldn't do it myself nor use a product like Tesla that was developed in such a shoddy manner. It's pretty fucking rude…

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