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Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

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Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#191

Post by wruza »

pwinnski wrote: post #80
dinom wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that no matter how kind you are to those people they'll find a reason to take offense anyway.

In which case there's no reason to be unkind, either! If you can communicate the truth with kindness and be heard, great. If not, move on. In my experience, unkindness isn't any more effective than kindness in effecting change; it usually prompts defensiveness.

Some people only receive straightforward truth that shouts in their face. Otherwise they find a hundred of excuses to slip through any kind argument. I agree that brutality should not be default - it’s simply statistically non-beneficial to your self. But avoiding it at all costs make you and/or your circle pay these costs eventually.

One of the human types may be called “emotional extremist”. They push borders until someone explodes in their face, and this is the feedback they use. Not reality or arguments. Cold controlled unkindness that presses them against the wall is much better in this case because otherwise someone will be driven crazy by them.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#192

Post by samhuk »

> If we have an objective, context-free, helpful truth then why can't it be offered in a way that respects and honors other people?

In my view, this is essentially the key sentence that the entire blog post builds up to and revolves around.

Honestly, I am fearful of this ideology. What I see, is an author who spends a very long time and many words to explain how, sometimes, truths are "too offensive" or "inconvenient", and therefore sometimes need to be "offered" differently. This is frankly just a problematic ideology.

On the other hand, I concede that a "fact" or "truth", in isolation, can also be problemaric. After all, we have all grown tired of the usual race and crime correlation debates that often devolve into "I'm just stating facts and statistics!" drudgery. However, it's my 2 cents that I think that the author has subscribed to and promotes a somewhat problematic censorship ideology.

Delivering "truth and facts" can be a real tough cookie. I personally find that it is the single hardest thing about my line of work, and I like to think I work on some very complex engineering thingamabobs!

If someone really is wrong, provably, and there needs to be proof (data), because, say they are working on building a bridge and are making important engineering decisions, then what is the author saying you do? Not be an asshole and tell the truth but be "nice and kind" about it? Or, are they saying you lie? Wholly or partly?

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#193

Post by falcolas »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #182
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

> Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your blood pressure will remain lower). I had a manager who would quietly disagree with things we said, then try to gently steer us toward the an…

Of course poor communication skills will cause problems. It's well worth asking for clarifications in such situations; I have few problems playing the dumb oaf and admitting my lack of understanding if it gets someone to ELI5 their point. And generally, someone who brags about using the Socratic method out loud will gladly display their brilliance you've blundered past.

In the end, I'm not advocating for confusing the person you're communicating with, I'm advocating for not butting your head against their beliefs; against their ego. Perhaps this advice is better suited to online debates, but I've also seen it too often in real life to waste my time trying to change someone's beliefs.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#194

Post by yarg »

maxbond wrote: post #133
yarg wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would you bother giving input when you don't care if or how it is received? Because the point of the statement is in the consequences that result, not the emotional response elicited? Here's an example, I once worked with an absolutely useless tester, the only tester on my team. Hadn't picked up by month four on the sort of basic shit he should've had on day one. And he never did. I'd been implementing some rat…

Well, I wasn't there, but I'm more inclined to believe that he wasn't given the support and mentorship he needed to learn than that he was simply "bad" and incapable of growing into the role. Maybe your organization wasn't in a position to provide that and it was a bad match, it happens. If you decide this dude isn't gunnuh make it and start cutting him off projects rather than getting him more support, it's a self f…

The guy simply did not have the ability to think in useful abstract terms.

He would ask about something that I expected him to be able to figure out, I would answer. Then he ask the same question with different parameters.

Day after day, week after week, month after month.

So yeah, the truth fell out of my mouth. It's always harshest when it's actually true.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#195

Post by hansvm »

cmh89 wrote: post #17
sublinear wrote: post #8

> It reminds me of the bumper stickers on trucks saying that vehicles must stay back at least 200 feet because the driver is not responsible for damage done to other vehicles by falling rocks. It's nonsense of course. No, it isn't nonsense . Neither are the signs at a mechanic's shop telling you they're not responsible for lost or damaged items. What all these signs have in common is that they signify dangerous work.…

>No, it isn't nonsense. Neither are the signs at a mechanic's shop telling you they're not responsible for lost or damaged items. I'm sure that included in the waiver you sign at the mechanics shop, its included that they are not responsible for lost or damaged items. The extra sign is just to let you know. The sign on the back of the truck is nonsense because it has no basis in reality. You can't just slap a sticker…

You can't sign certain rights away. If you sign a contract saying the mechanic isn't responsible for broken or missing stuff and they use that as an excuse to steal, drive recklessly with the door open, not take their gloves off before smearing oil on the upholstery, ..., they can and will be held liable if there's a modicum of evidence.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#196

Post by falcolas »

BeetleB wrote: post #168
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

> Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. But before you do that , examine the context. Would they care to even find out the truth? In over half the cases, I submit to you that they do not. Assuming that they value the truth as you do makes much of this submission relevant. Very often, t…

> That's not the path they seek.

Nope. But sometimes a good shove down that path is the right thing to do. I've seen a lot fewer posts in an extended family chat about drag shows after posting my own comment about how we were all entertained by Klinger, Mrs. Doubtfire, Bugs Bunny, Monty Python, et.al.

Have they changed their views? Not that anybody has said, but the quiet is nice.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#198

Post by falcolas »

mjklin wrote: post #153
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

Tell all the truth but tell it slant — Success in Circuit lies Too bright for our infirm Delight The Truth's superb surprise As Lightning to the Children eased With explanation kind The Truth must dazzle gradually Or every man be blind — - Emily Dickinson

Quite a few of her poems are real bangers. Thanks for posting this one.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#199

Post by falcolas »

roenxi wrote: post #174
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

The situation is much more complicated than can be dealt with by a single strategy. Human group discourse is a bit of a hydra where most individual people employ a single strategy but any strategy has its time and place and the group elevates speakers based on the moment. Eg, in an executive setting (military, business) there often isn't time or need to convince everyone. If you have a person who is consistently righ…

Fair enough. I can certainly agree with the idea of tailoring your speech to your audience.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#200

Post by wruza »

maxbond wrote: post #180
yarg wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if you think you know that someone is objectively beautiful or smart and that you telling them that is some kind of bandaid to rip off for them - that is something to reflect on, these are textbook examples of socially constructed ideas. > Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. Genuine beauty exists is a strong indicator of health and fertility, extremes of human state (such as the anorexic or obese…

> Genuine beauty exists is a strong indicator of health and fertility, extremes of human state (such as the anorexic or obese forms) are not only not beautiful but are profoundly unhealthy. Plenty of people find extremely skinny people attractive - it's one of the reasons anorexia can be a problem, people feel compelled to go without food because they're trying to attain a body shape that isn't achievable while stayi…

Plenty of people find extremely skinny people attractive … Plenty of people find larger people attractive … This is just smuggling your preferences into a frame of objectivity with some spurious comparisons

I think you forget that everyone’s stats are on a bell curve, and I may be a very beautiful boy for my mom, but her column is of height 0.02% and columns 20..100% don’t think so. You can’t start going to A if you think you’re at A and you can’t become a version of yourself you want to be if you believe you’re already perfect-ish. Being nice is one thing, another thing is gaslighting someone into unrealistic expectations. Who’s [not] wrong doesn’t matter if you have hard time finding a match or a job.

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