Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#191

Post by alkonaut » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:26 PM UTC

andreygrehov wrote: post #108

The_Colonel wrote: post #4

Finland got de-Finlandized at last. Which is what the expansion of NATO was always about. NATO isn't a threat to Russia itself - if Russia seriously feared NATO aggression, it wouldn't voluntarily demilitarize its NATO borders during the past 13 months. NATO expansion just neutralizes Russian ability to force its will upon its neighbors through threat of aggression (or in case like Ukraine through the use of aggressi…

[flagged]

> I find it weird and a direct provocation,

Listen Andrey. Russia has invaded its neighboring countries repeatedly during recent history. I think that's more than enough to explain why anyone near Russia would like to be in a defensive pact.

I also don't think anyone should be concerned whether Russia finds that "weird" or "a provocation". At all.

> the ambitions are not different from the ambitions of Russia

The ambition of Russia to invade foreign countries and basically include them in the Russian state? is that the ambition of any NATO country? Which part of a country has been invaded and annexed by a NATO country?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#192

Post by itsoktocry » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:26 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #6

[flagged]

This comment has been downvoted into oblivion. Why? It asks an honest question and provides some realpolitik judgement on how Russia could react. What is the issue?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#193

Post by _uoud » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:27 PM UTC

For people not very well versed into the background of this, the pop-geopolitics personality-phenomena Peter Zeihan did a recap on it today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vt3CxtQsuQ&ab_channel=Zeiha...

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#194

Post by BurningFrog » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:28 PM UTC

myth_drannon wrote: post #168

xkcd1963 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true, since the October Revolution the Soviets didn't actually serve their people

And before the Revolution, Tsarist regime did even more horrowing things to its people. Sadly Russia never had a ruling entity that was good. Well there was hope in the 80's with Gorbachev and Krushev with his Thaw period, but these were short lived and the system went back to its stable state of terrorizing its citizens.

The Soviet Union killed between 20-60 million of its own people.

Did Tsarist Russia really do anything that competes with that?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#195

Post by emaginniss » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

sprash wrote: post #105

cartermatic wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've been trying for ~13months already and haven't done so, why do you think they could do it now? Especially after losing 150,000+ soldiers (dead and/or wounded), and thousands of tanks and other armored vehicles? They've lost tens of thousands of troops and dozens/hundreds of vehicles just trying to take one town since August (Bakhmut).

Fog of war. You can't know what is happening. The only numbers I believe is the additional cost in $ and € the western taxpayer is burdened with. Because that is guaranteed.

This is the least foggy war of all time. There is a constant barrage of tiktok and telegram videos of exactly what is going on in this war. Every video is geolocated to show where battles are taking place. We don't know what is going to happen, but we pretty well know what is happening.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#196

Post by nathanlied » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

ghiculescu wrote: post #139

nathanlied wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem there is that you (and Putin) are viewing NATO's expansion as a curtailing of "Russia's sovereignty". Doing this probably means you take the view that the Spheres of Influence concept was correct: big blocs (Russia, China, US, EU) have an area of political/military/ideological influence that extends past their physical borders, and any other country exerting influence over the countries within those bound…

I agree spheres of influence is a worrying idea. But couldn’t you argue the same thing is happening to Ukraine under a US sphere of influence? Isn’t that bad too?

>But couldn’t you argue the same thing is happening to Ukraine under a US sphere of influence? Isn’t that bad too?

I fully agree with you - NATO -is- the US Sphere of Influence made manifest. The difference (in my view, anyway) is that the US is a better master than Russia or China, at least at this moment in time. The US tries to keep appearances at least by treating its partners as, well, partners. And the NATO military officials do believe we're all peers, at least all the ones I've had personal dealings with. Russia does no such thing (see Belarus).

But an even bigger difference, and the most important one, is this: Ukraine seems to want the EU and NATO. Sure, there's the oft-used argument that Euromaidan had US hand in it, but the US does not by itself mobilize nearly one million people (by Russian sources - so they'd have reason to diminish those numbers). Besides, Ukraine has been moving towards the EU as a country (even if not accompanied by Russian-aligned politicians) for years before Euromaidan. There's the more realistic complication that Eastern Ukraine is far more Euro and NATO skeptical than Western Ukraine. But those are internal Ukrainian problems, and not something neither the US, the EU, nor the Russian Federation should meddle in except for calling for peace, negotiations, and compromise.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#197

Post by ben_w » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

polski-g wrote: post #64

mcphage wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia could also take over all of Ukraine in about a week. I think that qualifies for a great big [Citation Needed].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba

At this point, I'm moderately confident that their corruption has sold off the uranium (in most of their arsenal) to the power stations and many of the important aircraft parts to whoever wants them, while any tritium (or non-nuclear maintenance) involved has only been done on paper.

Also, if they used that, there wouldn't be a county left to take over. Look where Chernobyl is, and its fallout zone, and ask how many other similar would happen as a result of using nukes to try to win.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#198

Post by ghiculescu » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

tokai wrote: post #154

ghiculescu wrote: post #129

The comments are pretty hard to read here given that any comment not cheering this on is immediately downvoted to death. Many are legitimate comments - I see why some might disagree with them but it’s not even possible to learn from them if they are silenced.

>Many are legitimate comments No they are not. Almost all[0] are the classic Russo-apologist talking points. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_all

I disagree. Here’s some examples.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35439104

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35439349

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#199

Post by kklimonda » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

andreygrehov wrote: post #132

sgjohnson wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't it be smarter to actually listen to what Russia is trying to say? No. Nobody should care what Russia has to say about another country voluntarily wanting to (and joining) NATO > the irony is that the expansion of NATO gives the US ability to force its will upon NATO members and its neighbors All NATO members joined voluntarily. None of your business. > the ambitions are not different from the ambitions of…

> No. Nobody should care what Russia has to say about another country voluntarily wanting to (and joining) NATO I'm sorry, but Russia's concern is not out of thin air - you can only join NATO if your membership is not a threat to your border countries. This is one of the rules of NATO itself.

Given that NATO is a defensive alliance, I don't see how such a rule would make much sense. Can you spell that rule out, and link to the official document?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#200

Post by 908B64B197 » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #46

morkalork wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading about what the Soviet Union did in countries like Estonia and Ukraine is pretty harrowing stuff. Wanting to join NATO for protection after is completely understandable and denying them because it would upset their former (and present) abuser is a shameful thought.

Everything that Russia is doing now it has done to countries like Poland in the past. That's why when we see news about Russia shipping Ukrainian kids to Russia to be "integrated" it makes our blood literally boil - it was the fate of many Polish families as well, my own relatives have stories of their loved ones having to walk back from Syberia after being sent there for "integration".

To me, one of the greatest feat of the EU and NATO is the integration of countries like Poland and Romania to the west. These two countries were economically and socially stunted by decades of communist mismanagement, failed socialism and outright theft and genocide from Russia.

It's been truly incredible to see them grow and prosper.