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California cancels salmon fishing season

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191–200 of 231 posts

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law of supply and demand expects the marginal cost of each additional fish to be more expensive. What if it's not. What if it costs the same amount of money to catch fish until you catch the very last fish. Suddenly the price of fish jumps from $.03/fish to infinity. Some sort of quota system has to be implemented and enforced to not come to such an abrupt halt on a market like that. Fish is one thing, at least t…

If you want less of something, tax it. Tax the caught fish.

> If you want less of something, tax it

If you want less of something, don't subsidize it.

> Tax the caught fish

How would you tax the bycatch?

How would you price the dead whales, dolphins and turtles?

How would you price the sharks dying because the populations of fish are collapsing?

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#192
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's ;) > No, animals do not have rights. What about pets? Let's talk about dairy industry ... why don't we switch to dog milk? Nothing wrong with dog's milk. Full of goodness, full of vitamins, full of marrowbone jelly. Lasts longer than any other milk, dog's milk. Why? No bugger'll drink it. Plus of course the advantage of dog's milk is that when it goes off, it tastes exactly the same as when it's fresh. > No, an…

Ok, but it might get long. And again, I'm not looking for an adversarial discussion. 1. Animal Rights Animals don't have rights because rights are a human construct. Absent humans, animal rights don't make any sense. Animals can only have "rights" in their relationship to humans, and humans are the ones enforcing those "rights". Therefore I don't think animal rights as a term makes sense. To me, they're closer to soc…

> I know how fucked up industrial farming is. That doesn't mean eating animals is immoral.

These two things are intrinsically tied in practice. The utopia where well cared for animals feed 8 billion people does not exist, and cannot exist without many more earths.

Try going vegan for say... a year. Make it a fun game. You get to try out some new foods and restaurants! You can always start eating meat again if you decide you want to take part in the stuff you saw watching Dominion.

You don't even have to give up pedantic moral discussions and infighting (i.e. the distinction between "fucked up" and "immoral"). Those are deeply entrenched traditions in the vegan community!

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#193
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's ;) > No, animals do not have rights. What about pets? Let's talk about dairy industry ... why don't we switch to dog milk? Nothing wrong with dog's milk. Full of goodness, full of vitamins, full of marrowbone jelly. Lasts longer than any other milk, dog's milk. Why? No bugger'll drink it. Plus of course the advantage of dog's milk is that when it goes off, it tastes exactly the same as when it's fresh. > No, an…

> I won't talk about this until you watch this: https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch (warning: very graphic content). False equivalences abound. Do you argue against people legally consuming marijuana because the cartels skin people alive? > And they don't matter less than you do. Do you think life in prison or even the death penalty should be on the table for a drunk driver that hits and kills a pregnant skunk? Be…

> Do you argue against people legally consuming marijuana because the cartels skin people alive?

Skinning people alive is not vegan. Humans are animals too.

> Do you think life in prison or even the death penalty should be on the table for a drunk driver that hits and kills a pregnant skunk? Because that’s what would happen if it was a pregnant woman instead.

Driving over a sentient being with your car is not vegan, skunk or woman, pregnant or not.

I'm not being sarcastic. Vegans are so often accused of not caring about humans that some people actually believe the FUD, and you might be one of them.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#194
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equals to kill several millions of people. Bad idea.

Worse idea: doing absolutely nothing to change our course of action until our decisions no longer matter because ecosystems have collapsed and hundreds of million of people are dying. That's how you get The Jackpot.

Trying to solve complex problems with simple improvised solutions is the definition of populism, and is normally worse than doing nothing.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#195
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need to stop using artificial fertilizers 80% of the population will starve to death if we do this. Is that what you want?

As I began in my second paragraph above, people do need to eat something. Right now that means sacrifice the environment if we want to keep everyone alive in the short term. Long term we could have farming that has zero environmental impact, like vertical farming with fully contained and controlled environment. It would cost huge amount of money and with the current economical system it would be impossible to feed ev…

IMHO going vegan is the only practical strategy for reducing the impact of your diet. You have no practical way of knowing most of what's going on in the supply chain for most products, or their true carbon footprint, but overall, the footprint of growing plants and feeding them to animals is way higher than just eating plants yourself. The laws of physics are, to some extent, "on your side" when it comes to boycotting animal products for sustainability reasons.

There ~are some plant products with well publicized ethical or sustainability scandals like coffee, chocolate, date palm, and avocados, that are worthy of looking into once you've already gone vegan. By all means look into those and try to source them carefully if you can or add them to your boycott, but be careful not to buy into the greenwashing false-equivalence that because some plant products ~are wasteful, it's OK to eat meat.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overfishing usually results in jellyfish blooms - if there are no fish to consume the available zooplankton then jellyfish will. There's stacks and stacks of papers written on that phenomenon.

So people just need to start harvesting jellyfish and eating them instead of fish.

> So people just need to start harvesting jellyfish and eating them instead of fish.

Why to eat stupid jellyfishes when all that you need to enjoy a 100% nutritive and delicious diet is to start eating other people?. Hoomans are plenty, easy to find, fatty, err sorry... enormous, yummy, delicious and had everything that our body needs.

Can we talk seriously again now? Only the 0,0001% of the jellyfish species are edible and they are basically a water globe devoid of nutrients.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#197
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly 100% of my meat comes from locally raised grass-fed-and-finished cows. They are rotationally grazed and live their whole lives in the outdoors. It is actually much, much cheaper than buying meat from a supermarket - ground beef is half the price, steaks are as little as 10%, because all cuts are priced the same. (My dairy comes from another, similar farm, and while it is much better, it is more expensive.) I a…

> my meat comes from locally raised grass-fed-and-finished cows https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/humane-meat > It is actually much, much cheaper than buying meat from a supermarket Thanks to subsidies ... taxes taken also from vegans ;) > the massive, endless fields of soybeans "More than three-quarters (77%) of global soy is fed to livestock for meat and dairy production. Most of the rest is used for biofuels, indu…

Sorry, your first link is profoundly unpersuasive. I don’t see anything wrong with killing animals for a purpose, nor anything inherently evil in suffering. I appreciate that you have a different value system, but I don’t share it. I do have a problem with treating animals as commodities and as inputs to industrial processes.

> Thanks to subsidies ...

Incorrect.

> "More than three-quarters (77%) of global soy is fed to livestock for meat and dairy production. Most of the rest is used for biofuels, industry or vegetable oils.

I think it’s clear I oppose growing soy for animal feed. At any rate it’s misleading to exclude vegetable oil as something people directly eat, when nearly every American consumes a huge proportion of their daily calories from soy and canola oils.

> You need also predators ... and I don't mean weekend hunters. Without predators the ruminants tend to stay in one place

Yes, I specifically mentioned the need for rotational grazing, which builds up topsoil and stops desertification.

> We don't need to eat meat to live and prosper. We have composting and syntropic agriculture. We don't need animal inputs in agriculture. We can rewild areas used for animal farming (75% of 50% agriland of habitable land) and let the wildife rebound and manage the ecosystems.

I disagree. I and many other people need meat to prosper.

Ecosystems are not steady state without our inputs. And certainly nobody besides me is going to support the mass reintroduction of predators. What you’re describing is just a different kind of human managed ecology.

Also, properly managed livestock can absolutely be a carbon sink.

With your last video, you’re preaching to the choir. It’s still true we all die.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#198
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me ashamed to be human. Reading stuff like that, and thinking about what we do to cows, sheep, lambs, chickens, etc, it dawned on me a while ago that humans have no right to treat animals like they're just a bunch of cells to be treated however we want, like a serial killer treats their victims. But that animals are fellow beings, a lot like us in many ways. I didn't want pain, or someone to kill me, so I fi…

If someone said I could live my life and be happy but at the end I have to die or not live at all I am going to choose life. The same is true for the animals I raise. They get to have a very peaceful life where they are spoiled. They get heat in the winter, fresh water daily, the correct amount of calories each day, treats which they love like fresh picked berries and other foods they love, protection from predators,…

Your animals are pets, not a food production system. Those animal farming practices will not scale to feed 8 billion people. Most ~humans are not receiving the standard of care you claim to be providing your animals with.

The idea that continuing to live is a personal decision is tempting as a part of a moral code (Ayn Rand takes this idea to absurd conclusions, for example.), but depression/suffering must be ~extremely severe for people to get over their self-preservation instinct. You are ~not, in any meaningful way, making a conscious decision to continue living for the rest of your natural life. You never gave consent to be in the situation you're in as a human being, and the animals you're raising ~certainly didn't.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#199
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farmed fish are fed pellets made of wild caught fish though.

That depends on the species. Farmed catfish eat mostly soybeans and corn (maize).

> eat mostly soybeans and corn (maize)

It still means deforestation, biodiversity loss, soil degradation, poisoning the ecosystem with pesti/herbicides and fertilizers on land (with the associated runoff into the waterways) and a lot of organic waste on the water (each salmon farm in scotland produces as much organic waste equivalent to a town of between 10 and 20,000 people each year).

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me ashamed to be human. Reading stuff like that, and thinking about what we do to cows, sheep, lambs, chickens, etc, it dawned on me a while ago that humans have no right to treat animals like they're just a bunch of cells to be treated however we want, like a serial killer treats their victims. But that animals are fellow beings, a lot like us in many ways. I didn't want pain, or someone to kill me, so I fi…

The meat I eat comes from a ten minute bike ride's distance from my house. The heavily-processed vegetable-based "product" aggressively marketed to you has been shipped halfway round the world, having been farmed using just about the least sustainable farming practices imaginable. Which one is harming the environment?

If your grocery doesn't have locally produced, affordable, delicious vegan junk food by now you should be pissed off at the people producing your food and demand better.
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