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Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

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Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#191

Post by kennywinker »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #88
timerol wrote: post #78

In addition to the 12 hour shift for all, and night shifts being allowed for women, there is still a 48 hour workweek, and maximum overtime of 145 hours in a 3 month period (an average of one extra 12 hour shift per week). Indian employers are required to pay double for overtime, so this seems mostly like the ability to move to 12x4 instead of 8x6. From an Indian minister: > “Now, the rule is that workers should work…

This reminds me of when people in China were expected to work on Saturdays back in 1999. Developing countries often require 48 hours a week as a way of catching up.

A way of "catching up"? Demanding an inhumane amount of work out of people doesn't help those people catch up, it uses up their one and only life to create wealth for a few elites in their country, and shareholders outside their country.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#192

Post by dcow »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #110
dcow wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is forcing anybody to work 12 hours a day?

Except most tech and quant jobs I’ve had where 80 hour work weeks are expected, but not required. It’s really only required if you want to keep your job.

There's stories and there's reality. I've seen 60 hour weeks occasionally but not 80 and not de-facto required. Most places have decent managers that understand work/life balance. Find one that does.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#193

Post by kennywinker »

newmanah223 wrote: post #133

I try not to judge these jobs by first world standards. What I don't understand is why a company can use $2 an hour labor and then sell a product for $1K. If I ran the US, I would put heavy tariffs on goods that companies try to outsource for cheap labor. This would encourage them to use technology and robotics to produce domestically.

It's not judging the job by "first world standards" to say that nobody can work 12 hours a day (6 days a week) and have a life outside of work.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#194

Post by hindsightbias »

throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #116

Vote with your dollars, people. Don't buy Apple and Foxconn products if you care about the wellbeing of workers.

I sleep so much better with my Samsung

"Among the most alarming information were reports that miscarriage “is very normal.” As one worker said, “It is very normal if they are young. If they are pregnant … for the first trimester it is very difficult, they miscarry a lot.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/03/14/your-cool-...

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#195

Post by fnordpiglet »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #190
fnordpiglet wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capital follows the state. The fact that capital also often guides the state is a flaw of the state. Capital is just people doing the job they were hired to do, often in a corporate framework, legally obliged to maximize profit and shareholder value. There’s definitely a feedback cycle, but the source of all control and governance is the guys with the guns and prisons.

edit: sorry, misunderstood implications from your pro state and capital position

Whaa? I’m stating the opposite. I’m saying the state needs to sack up and do it’s job.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#196

Post by lotsofpulp »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #153
asdajksah2123 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that half your workforce doesn't have an opportunity to contribute to the country's growth? I mean, cut the US or Europe's output by 25-30% (to match India's low female participation) and you're basically talking about eliminating decades of growth. People would be so much poorer and worse off. And that's just at the national level. There are a whole lot of other issues at the individual level, and the fact…

You do realize that prior to women entering the workforce a man, and his partner and three kids, working a full time factory job could lead a better lifestyle than two l5 engineers in CA can today, right?

You do realize that women did not have as much freedom under that arrangement?

Also, the demand for living in California drastically increased relative to supply of housing, but that is a different point.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#197

Post by dcow »

ddren wrote: post #86
dcow wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't take a salary. Nobody is forcing you to work for a nice salary. If you want to be paid by the hour so that every hour is accounted for then go for it.

Of course, in practice that is not a possibility for most people. You can't just choose to work hourly if nobody is willing to hire you on these terms. Without regulation the balance of power is strongly in the hands of capital and inevitably leads to employers working employees to death. We have plenty of examples of this in our past.

You can go work at McDonalds right now for $20/hr where I live. You can structure your work as a consultant and bill hourly. No you can't walk into a company that is looking for a salaried employee and tell them you're going to work hourly (I mean you can try, it might work). But you have plenty of options and there's plenty of work out there.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#198

Post by lotsofpulp »

lostlogin wrote: post #152
AlecSchueler wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes it harder for women who want to participate to participate. Simple as that. Women aren't commodities whose freedoms should be limited relative to men because of what it might do to "demographics and families." Women aren't slaves to be tied to home. They have agency and should be awarded the same legal freedoms as men.

It’s not that simple though. Being a house slave is bad, being a factory slave is too and that’s what others here are saying this is. Perhaps this isn’t actual progress?

It is progress relative to current position, where men have the advantage. It would be better if regulation was equalized for both in the other direction, but that did not happen.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#199

Post by dcow »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #126
dcow wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is forcing anybody to work 12 hours a day?

> Nobody is forcing anybody to work 12 hours a day? Do you have a source for this claim? Normally when I hear about workers at factories like this, they are treated like shit in all kinds of ways, given few other options, physically abused, and strongly coerced in to the longest shifts legally possible, or longer. See this documentary about global garment workers. Hopefully Foxconn is better, but we can't just assume…

I didn't say don't take abuse seriously. I questioned whether allowing a 12 hour workday implies abuse.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#200

Post by fnordpiglet »

dcow wrote: post #192
fnordpiglet wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except most tech and quant jobs I’ve had where 80 hour work weeks are expected, but not required. It’s really only required if you want to keep your job.

There's stories and there's reality. I've seen 60 hour weeks occasionally but not 80 and not de-facto required. Most places have decent managers that understand work/life balance. Find one that does.

My story comes from my life experiences starting at SGI, Netscape, Wall Street, etc over 30 years. What you deem reality i extrapolate from my reality as a recent emergent reality based on broad social trends that may or may not stick. I think the work life balance stuff is really recent and coincides with employers trying to convince people they’re not really evil and part of the recent wave of liberal humanism in western societies. It’s a great trend. But it’s neither concrete reality nor proven to be permanent.
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