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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#191
post #17
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone can drive from Palm Springs to SF with no intervention does that not make it bullshit anymore?

FSD requires you to be 100% in control of the vehicle for the entire drive, and paying full attention to the driving, and also do nothing. This is demonstrably not a task that anyone can do, let alone Joa[n] Average car driver. Highly trained pilots are not expected to do that, and that's when autopilot is being used in a vehicle that can provide significant amounts of time to handle the autopilot going wrong - serio…

> That said in countries other than the US people can reliably use trains and buses, which also means that they don't have to intervene in driving the vehicle.

Most of Europe doesn't have ideal public transport either, I'd imagine South America, Africa being the same or even worse in this aspect. It gets drastically worse the moment you want to go somewhere in the countryside.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#192
post #2

Does a recall like this actually mean owners return their car to Tesla for modification? Or would it be an over-the-air update to remove FSD?

Why does the media not make this clear in the headline?

They hate Musk ever since he took twitter away from them.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#193

I wonder what severity / frequency of incidents or regulator awareness required them to actually come out and say that they're issuing a recall, rather than just quietly putting it into an upcoming release like they probably would otherwise do?

> A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#194

Meanwhile, the only actual L3 capable car is a Mercedes. Plenty of people will argue that AP is actually superior, but I don't think there's any way to say that for sure, given the tight constraints Mercedes has put on their driver assistance in order to lower the liability enough to make L3 not a bankruptcy event. For certain, however, they are more confident in their technology than Tesla is, otherwise Tesla would…

This is limited to certain pre mapped roads, under 40 mph and requires a car in front to follow. This in no way compares to Tesla's Autopilot system. Edit (because HN throttling replies): > Mercedes is being responsible about their rollout You can always succeed if you define success. If rolling out something that doesn't do much of anything is success, success? Oh well. Less than 20 people have died related to Autop…

Mercedes is being responsible about their rollout, so people like you jump to the conclusion that their tech is worse. For my part, I see Mercedes taking liability for accidents that happen and think that they must have a lot of confidence in their tech to roll it out at all under those terms.

I would not be surprised to see Mercedes beat Tesla to safe fully automated driving because they took it slow and steady instead of trying to rush it out to legacy vehicles that don't have the right sensor arrays.

Edit: It's weird to reply to a comment by editing your own. It feels like you're trying to preempt what your interlocutor is saying, rather than reply.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#195
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems there’s a huge disconnect between people who know how to drive and are confident in their skills, and those who are scared to drive and want to offload it to Musk. I’m actually afraid to drive behind a Tesla and either keep extra distance or change lanes if possible. I still have more faith in humans to not randomly brake them in beta FSD. It’s one thing to put your own life in the hands of this beta model,…

Yeah it's not that I'm scared of my own driving, I mean that if other people had it it would be safer. Things which have happened in the last 3 days of moderate driving around a city: 1) A car gets impatient at some traffic turning right on a green light in a construction zone, and comes into my lane meaning into oncoming traffic . We have to swerve out of the way and slam on the brakes to avoid them. 2) A guy gets i…

Your Tesla tells you you're a safe driver. Well, geez, I'm convinced that the $55,000 (maybe+?) you spent tells you things you like to hear. I mean, one of the criteria is "Late Night Driving". Why not driving between the hours of 4pm and 6pm? When there are a lot more cars on the road, which is just statistically less safe.

https://www.tesla.com/support/safety-score#version-1.2

And looking at the rest of the criteria, they're ok, but hardly comprehensive. This is like, the bare minimum. It doesn't measure what I would call "doing stupid shit". Like crossing several lanes of traffic to get in a turn lane. Forcibly merging where you shouldn't. Nearly stopping in the middle of traffic before merging into a turn lane at the last minute. Straddling lanes because you're not sure if you really want to change lanes or not. Making a left turn from a major artery onto a side street at a place that is not protected by a light. Coming to a near complete stop for every speed bump, then rushing ahead to the next.

And a host of other things that demonstrates the person does not consider other people on the road at all.

Here's an entire article about how to game the safety score:

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/14/three-quick-tips-for-a-...

One of the tips is to "drive around the neighborhood when traffic is light".

And the car doesn't ding autopilot for behaviors it would knock a human for. Because the assumption is that the car would know better I guess. But then why isn't the safety score simply a deviation from what autopilot would do in a situation? If autopilot would brake hard to avoid a collision, shouldn't you?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#196
post #44

I still can't believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads. I've had it since day 1, and oh my god. It behaves worse than a drunk teenager. All the updates since, have made it barely better. This needs to be pulled entirely and rethought.

>I still can't believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads.

Fault, distracted, intoxicated human beings are allowed on public roads. The "legal limits" for blood alcohol levels aren't 0.00%.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#197

I love that this is the same guy who wants to send people to Mars one-way and then figure out the return trip later.

Right, but to be eligible for the return trip you'd first need to pay the loan you took to go there by working as an indentured servant and buying your oxygen and food at company-set prices, right?

What, you think people should be able to breathe for free?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The auto safety regulator said the Tesla software allows a vehicle to "exceed speed limits or travel through intersections in an unlawful or unpredictable manner increases the risk of a crash." Tesla will release an over-the-air (OTA) software update, free of charge. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-... Sounds like it's just a patch release with regulators involved.

I'm not sure how to reconcile that statement with how FSD beta works. Fine, the speed limit thing is easy to fix-- just cap the max speed to the speed limit. But the "[traveling] through intersections in an unlawful or unpredictable manner" is inherent to the FSD beta. Most of the time it does "fine", but there's some intersections where it will inexplicably swerve into different lanes and then correct itself. And th…

If they accepted a software update, I would assume it would be about things that are deliberately programmed in, rather than just fundamental limitations? But I agree it's a bit odd. The longer description says

> The FSD Beta system may allow the vehicle to act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution. In addition, the system may respond insufficiently to changes in posted speed limits or not adequately account for the driver's adjustment of the vehicle's speed to exceed posted speed limit. [https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2020/TESLA/MODEL%252520Y/SUV/A...]

"entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop" sounds a lot like the thing they already issued a recall over in Janary 2020 (further down the same web page), so it seems a bit odd that it would still be an issue. And "due caution" to yellow lights seems like it could just be tuning some parameter. On the other hand, failing to recognize turn-only lanes sounds more like a failure of the computer vision system...

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#199
post #44

I still can't believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads. I've had it since day 1, and oh my god. It behaves worse than a drunk teenager. All the updates since, have made it barely better. This needs to be pulled entirely and rethought.

You are meant to maintain control of the vehicle at all times with the beta.

That’s the only way it could be released in its current state.

Looking at it as anything other than a beta where you have to maintain control is misunderstanding what it is. Which you are clearly doing. It is absolutely expected to be worse than a drunk teenager in this stage.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#200
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That other drivers are beta testers for software controlling a large mass of metal and combustibles hurtling down asphalt at _ludicrous_ speeds is something you'd write into a dystopia story. The fact of the fiction is terrifying.

It’s a choice, you are in control all the time.

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/20...

"This study investigated the driving characteristics of drivers when the system changes from autonomous driving to manual driving in the case of low driver alertness.

...

In the results, a significant difference was observed in the reaction time and the brake pedal force for brake pedal operation in the low alertness state, compared to the normal alertness state of the driver, and there were instances when the driver was unable to perform an adequate avoidance operation."

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