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Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

phillymag.com

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Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#191

Post by thwayunion »

tssva wrote: post #126
jgil wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to a university official, with no explanation of how they came up with that number. Unions typically needs a certain percent of the vote to approve a strike. IMO — this will impact prospective students’ opinions towards the university for a longer time period than the strike.

The union represents 750 grad students and 150 are striking.

150 are publicly striking.

If I were a CS grad student at Temple, I definitely wouldn't strike. But after this hooplah I definitely wouldn't be slinging code at $10/hr either. After all, I'm a good programmer who can write papers and prove theorems and I make $2xK a year. What are they gonna do if I fuck off from running recitations and work on my own stuff or try and sell out my advisor's few half decent ideas to the local VCs? Fire me? LOL.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#192

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

sonofhans wrote: post #174
WalterBright wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The beauty of the free market is that the way to maximize profit is to maximize customer satisfaction.

Yeah, Mr. Bright, usually I think you’ve got your head screwed on pretty well, but this is a religious statement, not a matter of fact. 1. Find me a free market. Otherwise we’re just going to devolve into “no true Scotsman.” The USA, for instance, is light years from a free market in basically every respect. 2. In a truly free market the way to maximize profits is to create and maintain a monopoly. Nearly every large…

2) Monopolies usually form because of government failure, not because of free markets. What you state is true, but its only true because because its a means to an end: It is substantially easier to manipulate government into currying you favor, than it is to build innovation that sticks. The former is just dollars. The latter is dollars + sweat + luck.

1) OK. I challenge you to find a free market that has produced a monopoly company without some kind of govt helping hand. Examples of helping hands: artificially low interest rates (derisking M&A), regulatory capture, or failure to enforce laws (antidumping, antitrust).

3) That's true. And who's fault is that not all true (cheaper) choices are offered to the market ?

Hint: Why so few $1000 new cars, or $200 surgeries? Its not the market that is not willing to make them, rest assured. Its that a certain large body is not allowing others to make their risk:reward choices.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#193

Post by BobbyJo »

sonofhans wrote: post #174
WalterBright wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The beauty of the free market is that the way to maximize profit is to maximize customer satisfaction.

Yeah, Mr. Bright, usually I think you’ve got your head screwed on pretty well, but this is a religious statement, not a matter of fact. 1. Find me a free market. Otherwise we’re just going to devolve into “no true Scotsman.” The USA, for instance, is light years from a free market in basically every respect. 2. In a truly free market the way to maximize profits is to create and maintain a monopoly. Nearly every large…

1) Market != Country. There are plenty of free markets within the U.S.

2) There are multiple ways to maximize profits in a free market depending on the market. Not all markets allow you to create monopolies. Monopolies only exist, in practice, were market dynamics are compromised. For instance, power companies are able to be monopolies because power delivery infrastructure is constrained and supply cannot be increased (imagine if anyone who wanted to throw up a power poll was allowed).

3) Choice is literally the defining characteristic of a free market. If customers aren't able to choose, you aren't talking about a free market. This is kind of moot for this topic though, as colleges are very clearly something one can choose.

> How would you describe an economy in which customer satisfaction actually matters? Regulated free market? Free market with guard rails?

Regulations can make markets freer the same ways they make people freer. You are free to walk on sidewalks because laws say cars cants drive there.

> Or do you really think that a 100% unregulated market is at all supportive of human benefit?

The counter point to "free markets can help this problem" is not "you must think laws are stupid and money is everything."

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#194

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

jrumbut wrote: post #89
andrew_ wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused by that. When my health care ends by termination (of any flavor), I can continue to use that policy number and card for some time. I can then sign up for COBRA and continue my coverage using the same cards. Perhaps there's something else at play, but very strange to suddenly not be able to fill prescriptions.

That's interesting, every time I've left a job the insurance was canceled more or less instantly.

its cancelled because your employer stopped paying for it.

If you pay for it, its valid for a period of time, usually 6 mo

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#195

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

munk-a wrote: post #185
giantg2 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would COBRA come into play here?

They should all be eligible for COBRA, but COBRA is pretty insanely expensive (which is hard to pay for if you're striking and don't have a regular income - especially if you don't have much money in general like most grads). And people weren't actually informed their healthcare would be cut so they weren't aware they'd need to apply for bridging coverage.

COBRA is the real cost of healthcare insurance, which is hidden because the employer pays for X % + because the employer and employee both paid with pretax dollars (something that is not possible for COBRA since you are now a former employee)

Its not that COBRA is expensive, but that all tax-subsidized employer insurance is prohibitively expensive and typically costs 15-25% of the median worker's after-tax earnings

Healthcare insurance subsidies by employers are the biggest piece in wage increases... that are hiding from most "wage growth" statistics

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#196

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

nightpool wrote: post #53
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to some of those Twitter comments? I'm honestly curious of which labor laws they are violating. For example, I just did a search regarding healthcare for striking workers, and there is no federal law that prevents cancelling healthcare, to the point that some congresspeople have introduced bills in the last year to specifically outlaw that (but, to emphasize, those are just bills, they haven't been pass…

The NLRA governs what actions companies can and cannot take in response to protected labor bargaining actions such as a strike. It's currently unclear whether TU, as a "state-related" semi-public school is covered under the NLRA like any private school or business would be. If it's not, it would be subject to regulation under Pennsylvania Labor Relations Act, which covers public employees in Pennsylvania and seems to…

I don't think you are correct.

I think tuition remission is part of their overall W2 compensation - as noncash compensation, similar to what would be for RSUs, Merch, etc and other fringe benefits employers provide.

Arguing otherwise would make it seem that an employer can only withhold a prorata portion of an RSU award during a strike period, but that on its face seem wrong. I think the law allows for all comp on its tracks during the strike, regardless of the period covered.

If its comp, its table stakes for doing a strike.

There's nothing preventing the university to re-establish the fringe benefits once the strike is over (but of course, the limitations on not being able to register matter now, not in 2 months).

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#197

Post by komali2 »

WalterBright wrote: post #151
komali2 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Require? Genuinely require? It seems to me the high cost comes from attempting to create profit margin. If the profit is basically eliminated, the person can have the high wage, and we can have the nice things.

> If the profit is basically eliminated, the person can have the high wage, and we can have the nice things. Somehow, however, such Marxist implementations never deliver those nice things.

Co-ops are Marxist?

If so, wow, Marxist businesses are remarkably profitable, productive [1], and resilient [2]!

[1] https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/worker-cooperative...

[2] https://www.uk.coop/sites/default/files/2020-10/co-operative...

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#198

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

butlerm wrote: post #93
ninjagoo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Original note below the line. Unfortunately, as pointed out by tptacek [0]: > The wrinkle is that Temple's employees are public-sector employees, who are exempt from the NLRA --- but they're not necessarily exempt from equivalent Philadelphia law. tptacek appears to be correct [1]. That said, there is a Pennsylvanian 1970 "Public Employe Relations Act" that could cover unfair practices including retaliation but I can…

That almost certainly refers to rewarding non-strikers relative to strikers after the strike has been resolved. It is not against the law to cease paying wages and providing benefits to strikers while the strike is in progress. Of course with tuition there is a pro-rata issue, i.e. the benefit should return after the strike is over.

Agreed

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#199

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

jcranmer wrote: post #144
secabeen wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But look at this closely, with engagement. Currently, they are on strike, so tuition remissions cannot be issued. If that remains the case until March 6th, they will need to pay. If the strike is resolved before March 6th, and then they still refuse to issue the remissions, that would be a significant violation.

> Currently, they are on strike, so tuition remissions cannot be issued. That's... not how tuition remissions work. The remission would have been issued before the semester starts (as tuition bills are generally do at the very beginning of the semester). You're also putting a lot of faith in an entity that goes to considerable effort to monetarily punish people for striking [1] is going to be willing, out of the kind…

The mechanics matter little.

What matters is comp. Temple can stop all comp until strike resolves.

It doesn't matter if comp is cash, or noncash.

Just like RSUs, or Bonuses, or any fringe benefits promised, doesn't matter if lump sum or awarded monthly, or the timing, those benefits simply stop.

The law allows all comp to stop. The law is not saying you are supposed to prorate, etc.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#200

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

jahewson wrote: post #80
secabeen wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But look at this closely, with engagement. Currently, they are on strike, so tuition remissions cannot be issued. If that remains the case until March 6th, they will need to pay. If the strike is resolved before March 6th, and then they still refuse to issue the remissions, that would be a significant violation.

No because the loss of benefits extends to a period outside of the strike. It’s like taking somebody’s entire year of wages because they went on strike for a couple of weeks.

the law doesn't make room for proration.

There is prob some room for a judge to side with students after protacted litigation, but the university is banking on them leaving and not earning the fringe benefit, (and therefore, willingly foregoing the fringe benefit making the university not liable) so it probably matters little.

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