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Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

mullvad.net

191–200 of 534 posts

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think hide implies intent to deceive. It's often more like conscious and sub-conscious reasoning. We constantly tell a story to ourselves about our motives. We're impulsive and wrong a lot of the time. And nobody is the bad guy in their own story. Maybe it's willful ignorance. Ignorance of the misuse and harm of mass surveillance.

Maybe. Are you as open to the idea that those who oppose surveillance (that’s me) also have secret motives and engage in willful ignorance, so you can’t trust my anti-surveillance arguments? Because, the theory goes, even I don’t know the dark motives that are making me say those things? Do you see how impossible any dialog becomes in that model?

If you frame it as ignorance, the next step is to enlighten the other side with the factual arguments you want to make. "The threat landscape isn't as bad as you claim it is." "Mass surveillance has downsides that are worse than you would think." If you assert deceptive intent, it kind of slides into character attacks.

It's true that people sometimes don't argue in good faith, and it's fair to question hidden motives. But I think if you have better facts, you should keep arguing the facts.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#193
post #71

We certainly need decentralized systems that cannot be controlled by EU, US, or any government/entity. Privacy is a human right. We probably all know that they will show reasons like "fighting terrorism", "preventing national threats" or "hunting down child pornography" etc, whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it. Anyone who is really…

> We certainly need decentralized systems that cannot be controlled by EU, US, or any government/entity. I used to think this way, and still do to a degree... but it's not enough. The idea of zero trust as an absolute is flawed, because if the adversary is your own government they will just keep shifting targets. Lets play this out: 1. Gov start monitoring all proprietary messaging platforms and services. So lets ass…

Agreed. Just like every fight for freedoms, it is a constant battle, and one that will never end.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#194
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though something has a benevolent rationalization, it doesn’t mean the true motives are benevolent. It doesn’t need any New World Order conspiracy either. People in ruling positions often enjoy power, and they may be clueless as to how this desire is affecting their decisionmaking.

> It doesn’t need any New World Order conspiracy either. NWO is not a conspiracy theory any longer. This exact terminology is openly used by many politicians now, demanding for a NWO. Depending which bubble you live in, you have not seen any or only too little such speeches.

> NWO is not a conspiracy theory any longer.

It never was. Conspiracy nutheads just took it for them, and gave it their own evil twist. They always take something and see the evil option in it, and sell it as some fact which never was there. A similar thing happened recently with the term "Great Reset".

But the simple truth is, we always strive for a better world, so aiming for a new world order is something totally normal happening. Nobody thinks the world today is flawless.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#195
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We certainly need decentralized systems that cannot be controlled by EU, US, or any government/entity. I agree in principle, but controlled != regulated. It's (technologically) relatively easy to create a private, censorship-resistant distributed system, but if it's illegal people just won't use it. It's a human problem, not a tech problem.

> It's (technologically) relatively easy to create a private, censorship-resistant distributed system, but if it's illegal people just won't use it. Ask a Gen-Xer about Napster and Bittorrent sometime.

Bittorrent still exists. Plenty Gen-Zers use it too.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#196

We certainly need decentralized systems that cannot be controlled by EU, US, or any government/entity. Privacy is a human right. We probably all know that they will show reasons like "fighting terrorism", "preventing national threats" or "hunting down child pornography" etc, whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it. Anyone who is really…

> We certainly need decentralized systems Matrix and XMPP exists, what should we do to make this more popular?

Make it accessible.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#197
post #62
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though something has a benevolent rationalization, it doesn’t mean the true motives are benevolent. It doesn’t need any New World Order conspiracy either. People in ruling positions often enjoy power, and they may be clueless as to how this desire is affecting their decisionmaking.

I’m always skeptical of phrases like “true motives”. Sometimes people can do the wrong thing for the right reasons, or totally amorally. There doesn’t have to be a secret agenda. Framing things in terms of shadowy cabals that hide their secret motivations weakens the argument and reduces odds of successful resistance to these programs by misunderstanding the opposition.

Another way of phrasing this is "always argue against the best possible interpretation of your opponents argument."

It's a HN rule for good reason. It makes your own arguments stronger.

Even if your opponent _is_ a shadowy new world order cabal member or supporter, arguing against the best possible interpretation which requires of their stance helps sway random citizen X who may not know of or believe in such a cabal.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#198
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's encrypt made a huge improvement on the status quo, but now that 95% of the web depends on them, they're an obvious central point of vulnerability for censors and spy agencies

...you're not concerned about all of the other Trusted Root CAs that ship in OS/browser updates? Why would the NSA/GCHQ/etc need to compromise a high-profile target like LetsEncrypt when they could bribe any of the dozens of companies names listed in my own local certmgr.msc that I don't recognize at all[1]. 1: I'm seeing names like "Actalis", "Baltimore CyberTrust", "Cetrum" - some of these sound more like pharmaceu…

a compromised root ca allows an attacker who already has dns or ip control (via bgp, arp spoofing, a captive portal, etc.) to leverage it into a working mitm attack on a tls site, but it can't revoke certs it didn't sign, and the attack is over as soon as the attacker loses dns or ip control

by contrast, the ca you chose to sign your cert can revoke it, or refuse to renew it, taking your website permanently offline with zero effort on their part, unless you can find another ca to sign a new cert for you

but if you could, let's encrypt wouldn't have had to exist in the first place

the dozens of companies you mentioned make that less of a threat, not more of one, though they do of course increase of mitm attacks as i described in the first paragraph of this comment

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#199

Funnily enough it is European companies and not American ones that are leading the charge on privacy. ProtonMail / Tutanota etc for example on the email front. I've heard of a company called Snacka! as well that seems to be using some gaming tech in streaming for end-to-end encrypted communication that doesn't suffer performance as much as services like jitsi. If more companies follow privacy principles like this in…

Tutanota was forced to install a backdoor by a German court (see https://www.heise.de/news/Gericht-zwingt-Mailprovider-Tutano...) I don't think a US court can force a US company to do so.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#200

We certainly need decentralized systems that cannot be controlled by EU, US, or any government/entity. Privacy is a human right. We probably all know that they will show reasons like "fighting terrorism", "preventing national threats" or "hunting down child pornography" etc, whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it. Anyone who is really…

> We certainly need decentralized systems that cannot be controlled by EU, US, or any government/entity.

No. If such a system could work in any meaningful way, it would be already in place.

Trying to fight legal frameworks with technology, failed in the past with some notable but hardly repeatable exceptions. In the 90s a few geeks tech awareness could match the resources of a small state, non tech-savvy state. Nowadays it is impossible because the discrepancy in resources is huge.

There are countries that force you to download their own "secure" SSL certificate, so they can sniff all traffic. China is the worst and most prominent example.

This battle need to be fought on the street, with votes, by raising awareness, etc. If we want to be "free" we need to take-over the political battle, not the tech battle because if we win on that front, most likely won't matter. I don't want to risk jail for using an open source encryption tool.

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