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Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

economist.com

191–200 of 463 posts

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#191
post #4

I have a Tesla and I also hold a short position on TSLA. My Tesla is a great car. The best car that I've ever driven but I'm not sure if it has anything that other car manufacturers can't replicate. I think Apple can make an even better car than Tesla if they build the hardware and software like their phones and computers. The idea that Autopilot has some magic sauce that nobody else can replicate is laughable.

Have you driven other cars in the same price range as your Tesla?

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was a survey a few years ago of how much more people would be willing to pay for cars that could drive themself, and the median answer was $0. This is because quite a few people gave a negative number, that is, they would pay extra for a car that could not drive itself. I think there's an inherent distrust (which I share) of giving technology the power to end our lives with one bug. Trust in technology, in ge…

> The truth is, if full self driving cars actually happened, with safety statistics better than humans and with a low barrier to entry, you can bet that people would change their opinion real fast. I think this is the wrong counter-argument against self-driving cars being viable. If the median answer is $0 and there were a lot of negative answers then that means there's a lot of positive answers. Just sell the cars t…

Nonetheless, I would claim it's a lot more than half of people who would want self driving cars. How many daily commuters exist? I surmise atleast 90% of them would want self driving cars if it were a proven, familiar technology with a reasonable barrier to entry.

Of course, I'm just projecting a hypothetical technology that is both fairly cheap and extremely safe/effective. We can expect that future is far, far away

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#193
post #14

This is true for so many "tech" darlings: Should Uber be priced like a tech company, or a cab company? Is Amazon a tech company or a retailer? Are ecommerce outlets like Warby Parker and Away tech companies, or just retailers with good CSS? It continues to amaze me how investors seem bamboozled by the appearance of "tech company-ness", by businesses which are obviously in markets that don't support the high price to…

And of course, there's the meta-question:

Why do investors price so highly these gambles over things that are already generating demonstrable value for real human beings?

Like, why do these cultural signifiers make them salivate to be parted from their funds given the track record of tech (20% fail in year 1, 1% become unicorns, 18% of first-time founders generate a company that can even tread water)?

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#194
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being ahead on everything doesn't help if the larger players can pick and choose improvements and learn from your mistakes and adapt. It really doesn't help when the leadership of said car company is erratic and eroding the goodwill of the brand while people generally feel comfortable with more established carmakers. I feel pretty confident that major automakers are going to be around in 10 years. Buying a Tesla alre…

I haven’t checked in a while, but last time I looked Tesla was supply constrained—they couldn’t make cars fast enough to meet demand, so (unless that has changed) they’re probably not too worried about hypothetical demand reduction.

Their global backlog of orders has gone from ~470k to ~74k over the last few months. There is no backlog of orders at all in the US or Canada and the backlog for the rest of the world is dropping quickly.

https://twitter.com/TroyTeslike/status/1609346097733828609?s... (This is the most recent data made public, the Patreon data goes through Dec 31 with the numbers quoted)

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#195
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference seems to be that Tesla was 5-10 years ahead on everything: Minimalistic interiors, modern infotainment, mobile app performance, and of course they lead the way in making electric cars viable by showing that they can both look good and blast off in record time. But you're right that other automakers see Tesla as a threat and are catching up; for example, the range and charging curve improvements on mode…

Tesla's only competition is Chinese EV makers, everyone else can't make enough cars, and none of them are profitable. Tesla are 5-10 years ahead on profit, due to adopting cost savings such as no buttons, more miles per kwh, thus smaller batteries, casting most of the body in 2 or 3 pieces. And then there's in house software creation, vs everyone else. Software makes their use of their motors more efficient. That's b…

It sounds like you're saying that Tesla has no competition if you ignore their competition. You can't be dismissive of Chinese EV makers, who are rapidly encroaching on western markets and are reshaping the motor industry. Here in Norway I'm noticing more and more Chinese EVs on the road and they are competing at all levels of the market, from "affordable" to high end. To add to those numbers, many originally Western marquees now have full or partial Chinese ownership.

Many Chinese companies are multifaceted or have co-ownership with suppliers. For example, look at a company like BYD, which appears to be out producing Tesla and has yet to fully enter many markets. They also build their own batteries. The Chinese motor industry is a formidable competitor.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#196
post #70
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that Autopilot has some magic sauce that nobody else can replicate is laughable. Apparently GM's Supercruise is better, and cheaper. I got enhanced autopilot in my first Tesla. Except for changing lanes, things like summon and autopark are just toys. The auto lane chance is so glitchy I decided I was better off saving seven grand on my second Tesla. But if Enhanced Autopilot was 1-2 grand, I'd have bought…

Wait what, SuperCruise better then AP? Any sources?

Independent reviews indicate that GM SuperCruise is superior to Tesla AutoPilot in most areas, but Tesla does still have some features that GM lacks.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/21/test-driving-gm-ford-and-tes...

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#197
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hilarious that anyone would consider this an acceptable work around for such an idiotic design flaw.

Yeah well that they omit a windshield wiper stalk is also idiotic and furthermore outright dangerous. I've done overtakes next to trailers some times in heavy rain where in a second I had to hit the wiper stalk to max. Relying on their camera -based AI to do that (yes they skip on the cost of the industry standard IR sensor for rain detection) is crazy. A german guy actually died a few years back because he was searc…

The charitable take on this is that it's an optimistic design that anticipates a future where an AI will deal with all these minor decisions. The cynical take is that it's a cost cutting measure so Tesla can sell cheaply-made cars at premium prices.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point of assistance, it shouldn't need double checking by a human every time. It should just work.

Unfortunately, Autopilot currently exists in the liminal space where it should just work... Unless it doesn't, in which case it's allowed to kick out with no margin of notice time and the driver is immediately responsible for what happens next. It's entirely possible that is an unsafe-at-any-speed configuration.

It's sketchy at best. Our newest car does emergency braking and that's it. And it's good at it, only engaging when there is a situation it feels (and is correct) about me not braking in time or hard enough. I shouldn't have to worry about it failing.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#199
post #4

I have a Tesla and I also hold a short position on TSLA. My Tesla is a great car. The best car that I've ever driven but I'm not sure if it has anything that other car manufacturers can't replicate. I think Apple can make an even better car than Tesla if they build the hardware and software like their phones and computers. The idea that Autopilot has some magic sauce that nobody else can replicate is laughable.

That's just it. I see it as follows. Back in the 2000s, the iPhone came out. Especially with the 3G, it was miles ahead of the competition, and it took Android manufacturers five years to catch up and overtake it. I believe Tesla holds - or, held - a similar position. They had a head start in many areas, but they could not keep it up. One big difference is quality; Apple phones have great build quality, always have -…

> > Especially with the 3G, it was miles ahead of the competition

Pocket PC was a thing and it was great.

We have come so far in human progress that nobody invents something that is ‘miles ahead’ of everyone else.

What people do is they manufacture a narrative which purports such claims and shove it down people’s throats.

That is even more true in a sector which is almost 200 years old such as automotive.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The giant tablet screen that sticks out like a sore thumb is the opposite of minimalistic, or minimalistic in the worst way. I wonder how long Tesla can get away with not offering CarPlay/Android Auto functionality. The lack of that basic, cheap, and frequently used feature disqualifies any car from consideration in my view.

I don’t love that I have to use the touch screen to open my glove box, and I certainly think there are a lot of UI issues (and the lack of integration with phones beyond regular bluetooth), but one thing I appreciate is that there aren’t any blinding dash lights. I can see a lot better at night in my Tesla as a consequence compared with any other vehicle I’ve driven.

I have not driven many cars, but I feel like there is usually a dial to adjust the brightness of dash lights. At least in Toyotas.
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