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3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

reuters.com

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Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#191

Post by amelius »

EastLondonCoder wrote: post #136
runnerup wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that if our universe is actually a simulation, it's one of countless simulations trying to determine a solution to the Tragedy of the Commons. I suspect it's one of the hardest problems to solve in any universe.

Is it really that hard though? On the top of my mind I can come up with several success stories of solving tragedy of the commons type of problems. For example: Global regulation around CFCs made the ozone hole shrink The don't mess with texas anti littering campaign and similar outreach programs worldwide reduced littering In general taxing negative externalities seems to have an effect

The solution isn't difficult. It is getting everyone to agree on that solution that is difficult.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#192

Post by Semaphor »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #180
wongarsu wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This varies by market. In the US, they just bottle tap water. In Europe this is really unusual, bottled water uses their own wells with different requirements and regulations. For example a stable mineral concentration and taste is very important for mineral water, but of secondary concern for tap water. Also tap water might come from surface water (rivers etc) while mineral water doesn't.

In Poland, there's "mineral water" where it needs to fulfill those requirements, and "spring water" that is basically bottled tap water. The first one costs like 0,5$ for 1,5L , while second one can be bought for as low as 0,2$.

Germany has mineral water and table water. Table water is the bottled tap water.

Though where I live, even table water would be better than unfiltered tap water. Not because of health concerns (I actually had my tap water lab tested as the building is from the 60s), but because of limescale in the kettle and disgust on my tastebuds ;)

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#193

Post by ClumsyPilot »

bboygravity wrote: post #163
jraby3 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try really hard not to use single use plastic. Especially plastic bags, plastic bottles, etc. This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days but will wait till I get home or to work to drink filtered water out of the tap. I went to Las Vegas about a year ago on a work trip and realized that the hotel I stayed at uses more plastic bottles in an hour than I would use in my lifetime with no though…

The amount of plastic ending up in oceans/nature from "The Western world" is not very significant relative to the total. There are entire continents that essentially dump most of their (plastic) trash straight into rivers (and thus oceans). Looking at you (South East) Asia...

The Western wolds is comitting massive fraud and has you fooled too.

In UK recyclers get paid by the government a small amount per ton recycled. It is , however, not enough to trully recycle anything. So they take out a few valuable plastics, and pay randpm company in poor country to tale this plastic, and to sign paperwork saying that it's going to a recycling facility. In reality it will simply be dumped, and money will be pocketed.

Then when someone complains, they pull the documents thst were signed by some random fall guy, make a surprised face, and claim they thought the plastic would be recycled.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#194

Post by donatj »

We should really come up with a better less chemical fear based name than “forever chemicals”.

Even “forever contaminants” would be a major improvement.

Just being a chemical that hangs around isn’t a bad thing. By that definition water is a “forever chemical”. I am well aware this isn’t what’s meant by forever chemical but the naming should involve something implying the negativity other than the ignorant use of chemical as a negative.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#195

Post by feet »

smilekzs wrote: post #94
Reason077 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days" Why not carry a reusable water bottle? I have a great double-wall steel bottle (Hydro Flask), which is much better than a plastic bottle because it keeps water cold all day long and is basically indestructible. In most places I travel to it's not difficult to find sources of clean, cold water to refill it. Worst case, I will buy a large bottle of…

For me, there's always a metallic residual taste in my water whenever I use a stainless steel bottle. Got tired and returned to using normal mugs.

Glass is an option

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#196

Post by diordiderot »

rich_sasha wrote: post #120
DoreenMichele wrote: post #36

3M has been facing a raft of litigation that has prompted the move Generally speaking, toxic substances are only "cheap" due to externalizing many of the costs involved, like increased healthcare costs and lost productivity. If you do a thorough analysis of the costs of using such chemicals, they aren't cheap at all. Maybe someday humans will get that.

Coal cheap, nuclear expensive.

Yeah, but the point is thats only if you don't price in externalities. (Sorry if this is meant to be a sarcastic comment)

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#197

Post by goodpoint »

runnerup wrote: post #46
DoreenMichele wrote: post #36

3M has been facing a raft of litigation that has prompted the move Generally speaking, toxic substances are only "cheap" due to externalizing many of the costs involved, like increased healthcare costs and lost productivity. If you do a thorough analysis of the costs of using such chemicals, they aren't cheap at all. Maybe someday humans will get that.

I always thought that if our universe is actually a simulation, it's one of countless simulations trying to determine a solution to the Tragedy of the Commons. I suspect it's one of the hardest problems to solve in any universe.

> Tragedy of the Commons ... one of the hardest problems to solve in any universe.

No, it's not at all. It's a problem that humans encountered for millennia and solved successfully again and again.

That's what organized society is for.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#198

Post by ClumsyPilot »

stuaxo wrote: post #139
runnerup wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that if our universe is actually a simulation, it's one of countless simulations trying to determine a solution to the Tragedy of the Commons. I suspect it's one of the hardest problems to solve in any universe.

We should remember that the original tragedy of the commons didn't happen, the idea was based on false assumptions around how greedy people are. We could start by looking at how people managed systems sustainably including the original commons. https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false...

Tragedy of the commons was a false-flag by british aristocracy which enabled them to seize Commonhomd land from Commoners in 1500's and drive them into poverty and endantured servitude.

In a single masterstroke they gained assets and labour.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#199

Post by diordiderot »

legitster wrote: post #42

"Forever chemicals" is clearly a scary term devoid of context. Please help me ground it. Is this a health or environmental risk? Is it potential or realized? What's the nearest comparison?

Forever chemicals do not last in the body forever, but they accumulate faster than our body can naturally filter them out.

They don't break down in the natural environment, thus why we accumulate it faster than we can filter it.

They can be broken down under high pressure i.e. hydrothermal carbonization(HTC).

The only solution I can see to remove them (over the course of decades / centuries) is to run all of our sewage through HTC

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#200

Post by 2000UltraDeluxe »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #178
2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolving into a culture of totalitarian rationalism like the Vulcan, would require irrational parties to be at an evolutionary disadvantage. That rules out any modern democracy from ever doing it, since discriminating anyone acting on instinct or feelings won't ever get a majority vote. Totalitarian regimes might succeed, though.

I wonder if we are "beyond the basics of evolution and selfish genes" now in terms of human intelligence, technology, society and soon: AI. For example once a species can edit it's own genes, you get to a point where maybe the genes "competing" and "being selfish" becomes meaningless, and some other defining "replication force" takes over as the dominate shaping of future life. We might get to "the selfish data"? Gen…

Narh, when it comes to breeding, we humans tend to be quite predicable. Outliers definitely exist, but they generally don't procreate as much as people who just feel the urge and go for it. In order to shape evolution you'd need to make what would essentially begin as an edge case and make sure it's such an advantage that it reduces the likelyhood of others having more children than you.
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