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Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

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Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#191

Post by zelphirkalt »

dmitriid wrote: post #179
zelphirkalt wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is, that JS, CSD and HTML are evolving. They now offer way more than they used to. We can do so much with HTML 5 and CSS 3 already. The argument is to not use React or similar, when a simpler way using standard conform means is available. It is hard to take a comment serious which compares not using React to not being able to do anything productively. It looks like a very junior React-only dev comment.

> We can do so much with HTML 5 and CSS 3 already. The argument is to not use React or similar, when a simpler way using standard conform means is available. There are no simple ways to build UIs available in HTML5 and CSS3. It has neither state handling, nor reactivity, nor any APIs that don't make you tear you hair out (or build another lib/framework). It's a horrendously bad half-low-level half-high-level API with…

People have built "UIs" on websites for decades, without the current flavor of SPA web frameworks. It is actually very easy to put things like a navigation and forms and such things on a website. Most websites do not need more than that. They merely show some information. Maybe you can register through a form or login through a form to see some more information. Not every website needs to be a SPA. The use-case you are apparently relating to, the one of websites really needing a more complex desktop-like UI, is merely a small percentage of websites. If you find yourself building a SPA on every second project, then you are most likely just following hype.

If you find yourself wanting to put dialogs on a website, consider showing information in a different way, more appropriate to the web. Work on your assumptions of how things must be done and some problems will disappear without ever having to write gnarly code.

Aside from that, writing a dialog is really not that difficult. I've done that before and I didn't need any framework to do it. Just don't rely on its modality for security, obviously, because one does not rely on frontend code for security anyway. Element zapper will make short work out of any dialog, that tries to block the stuff underneath it.

Ultimately the browser is not the desktop. It has a different use-case. Too many people do not understand this and try to shoehorn things into being "like on the desktop". Write desktop programs, if you want the desktop (not Electron shit ...). Write websites, if you want the web and the browser. Both have their own quirks and complications. Trying to force one into the other will only lead to more complications. Good design pays attention to the medium.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#192

Post by dmitriid »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #191
dmitriid wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can do so much with HTML 5 and CSS 3 already. The argument is to not use React or similar, when a simpler way using standard conform means is available. There are no simple ways to build UIs available in HTML5 and CSS3. It has neither state handling, nor reactivity, nor any APIs that don't make you tear you hair out (or build another lib/framework). It's a horrendously bad half-low-level half-high-level API with…

People have built "UIs" on websites for decades, without the current flavor of SPA web frameworks. It is actually very easy to put things like a navigation and forms and such things on a website. Most websites do not need more than that. They merely show some information. Maybe you can register through a form or login through a form to see some more information. Not every website needs to be a SPA. The use-case you a…

> It is actually very easy to put things like a navigation and forms and such things on a website.

That's about 1% of 1% of what people want to build.

> Most websites do not need more than that.

That we can agree on

> If you find yourself wanting to put dialogs on a website, consider showing information in a different way, more appropriate to the web.

dialog is literally a web standard in the web platform you so ardently advocate for. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/di...

> Aside from that, writing a dialog is really not that difficult.

Tell me you've never built a proper accessible dialog without telling you've never built one.

> Too many people do not understand this and try to shoehorn things into being "like on the desktop".

I can empathise with this sentiment because I've expressed it myself many times. However, that ship has sailed and the platform has not adjusted in the least.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#193

Post by nikanj »

csmpltn wrote: post #69
5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #3

> During the past 5–6 years of my JavaScript experience, every time I wanted to go back to any of my projects—from tiny to big, server-side or front-end—there was always a challenge, a problem to tackle or an obstacle to overcome before I can update or sometimes even just run my program. why i moved mostly from writing node cmd tools to using bash. don't need to go on a bunch of side missions every time i run npm ins…

> "why i moved mostly from writing node cmd tools to using bash" You literally moved from one unmaintainable mess of an ecosystem (Node), to what is arguably an even worse unmaintainable mess of an ecosystem (bash). Glad to hear it wasn't Perl though. For self-contained little tools or hobby projects that can run cross-platform, use Python. For anything beyond that - use a proper strongly typed language (C, C++, C#,…

The python build/install/distribute situation is so bad, XKCD made fun of it years ago https://xkcd.com/1987/

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#194

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

hutzlibu wrote: post #51
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't use js because it is the hot new thing, but rather because it is simple . It infamously isn't. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat

Hm, video arguments are not my take, I did not watch it (yet), but in either case this seems to be opinion. But of course, javascript is so simple, that it is not suitable for complex problems. No (sane) person would ever claim, that it is the right language for every problem.

Are you familiar with the No True Scotsman logical fallacy?

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#195

Post by ludovicianul »

csmpltn wrote: post #69
5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #3

> During the past 5–6 years of my JavaScript experience, every time I wanted to go back to any of my projects—from tiny to big, server-side or front-end—there was always a challenge, a problem to tackle or an obstacle to overcome before I can update or sometimes even just run my program. why i moved mostly from writing node cmd tools to using bash. don't need to go on a bunch of side missions every time i run npm ins…

> "why i moved mostly from writing node cmd tools to using bash" You literally moved from one unmaintainable mess of an ecosystem (Node), to what is arguably an even worse unmaintainable mess of an ecosystem (bash). Glad to hear it wasn't Perl though. For self-contained little tools or hobby projects that can run cross-platform, use Python. For anything beyond that - use a proper strongly typed language (C, C++, C#,…

In the past years Java is a strong candidate for cmd tools.Using Quarkus + Picocli + GraalVM for native compiling, gives you a standalone binary which can be used on any platform.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#196

Post by hutzlibu »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #194
hutzlibu wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, video arguments are not my take, I did not watch it (yet), but in either case this seems to be opinion. But of course, javascript is so simple, that it is not suitable for complex problems. No (sane) person would ever claim, that it is the right language for every problem.

Are you familiar with the No True Scotsman logical fallacy?

Yes, but I do not know, what you are trying to tell me.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#197

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

hutzlibu wrote: post #196
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you familiar with the No True Scotsman logical fallacy?

Yes, but I do not know, what you are trying to tell me.

I am suggesting that you are making exactly this kind of fallacious argument when you say “No (sane) person would ever claim, that it is the right language for every problem.”

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#198

Post by hutzlibu »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #197
hutzlibu wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but I do not know, what you are trying to tell me.

I am suggesting that you are making exactly this kind of fallacious argument when you say “No (sane) person would ever claim, that it is the right language for every problem.”

"in which one attempts to protect their universal generalization from a falsifying counterexample by excluding the counterexample improperly"

This would be the wiki definition.

But where is your falsifying counterexample?

You mean the video, which says below:

"This talk does not represent anyone's actual opinion. For a more serious take on software, try .."?

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#199

Post by 5Qn8mNbc2FNCiVV »

he_is_legend wrote: post #185
GrabbinD33ze69 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't need to go on a bunch of side missions every time i run npm install Lol what a great way to describe what running a simple "npm install" entails.

Try doing this on a 5 year old project. You'll very likely end up in dependency hell. There is a solution though - use of nvm and .nvmrc (to control the version of node and npm that you use), and use of npm ci (which installs packages as they were at the time, rather than installing newer versions than specified in package-lock.json (because too many devs rarely ever pin versions) instead of npm install / npm i). nvm…

I rarely if ever get version mismatches for a normal npm install because upgrades by default only do minors. If a package has a breaking change in a minor it's not a JS issue, it's not a npm issue, it's a "this package author made a breaking change in a minor" issue.

And regarding nvm: That's obvious. This is the same for almost any runtime. If you have the wrong jdk version it doesn't work, if you have the wrong (whatever iOS uses for xcode) version it doesn't work, if you have the wrong version of gcc it doesn't work.

Obviously wrong is not always the same, more up-to-date versions of gcc can compile older programs (maybe) but that's also the same for Node unless otherwise specified in the packages.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#200

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

hutzlibu wrote: post #198
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am suggesting that you are making exactly this kind of fallacious argument when you say “No (sane) person would ever claim, that it is the right language for every problem.”

"in which one attempts to protect their universal generalization from a falsifying counterexample by excluding the counterexample improperly" This would be the wiki definition. But where is your falsifying counterexample? You mean the video, which says below: "This talk does not represent anyone's actual opinion. For a more serious take on software, try .."?

It's fairly easy to find falsifying counterexamples — it's not such an uncommon opinion.

Also I believe the author of the video is clarifying in the statement you quoted that he isn't trying to take a position on the state of the industry.

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