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Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

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Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#191

Post by barrkel »

MezzoDelCammin wrote: post #179
sva_ wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, my Nike goretex shoes already lost their waterproof properties after 1 year of moderate use. I didn't know I could solve this thru Gore. Edit: I checked and bought these shoes in April 2020. I guess I will try to contact them?! The product was "Nike Air Zoom Pegasus 36 Trail GTX Gore Tex". I wonder where I should contact them?

GTX in shoes generally does not last very long. In my experience in about a season or so there are patches/ cracks that let the water in. I guess something to do with the stresses of using a soft membrane meant to wrap around human body to support the weight of said body...

I have a pair of motorcycle boots with Gore Tex liner for about 10 years and they're still good for hours of rain. I also have no complaints about my Ecco shoes, but they only last a few years of wear.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#192

Post by MezzoDelCammin »

adrian_b wrote: post #183
MezzoDelCammin wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GTX in shoes generally does not last very long. In my experience in about a season or so there are patches/ cracks that let the water in. I guess something to do with the stresses of using a soft membrane meant to wrap around human body to support the weight of said body...

I believe that the durability of Gore-Tex in shoes might depend much more on the quality of the shoes than on the material itself. I have used Gore-Tex only in shoes, but in various kinds of high-quality shoes (i.e. not cheap), either made by a less known Swiss company, or by brands like Adidas or Asics. In all cases, I have used daily the shoes for 3 to 4 years until I had to dump them, always due to an excessively…

My personal experience cuts it more along the lines of what the other materials in the shoe are. My main hiking shoes are leather Meindl Islands (on my second pair now since something like a decade - the first would probably have worked if it wasn't for an unfortunate accident). They have a decent leather upper and if You keep maintaining it, the leather alone is probably doing most of the job.

On the other hand, I think I went through by now about 3-4 pairs of various running/hiking lighter plastic shoes (Merrell, Reichle, Salomon) and in those the membrane is the only thing keeping the water out. Unfortunately, it's generally sewn deep into some plastic mesh, so no way to tell / maintain it even if You'd like to. And one tear in the membrane means that all the water that seeps into the surrounding mesh "will" always find the way into the failed part of the membrane. Unfortunately, the rest of the membrane then tends to still do its part in slowing the moisture on its way out. So it drains / dries much slower than shoes with no membrane.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#193

Post by MezzoDelCammin »

barrkel wrote: post #191
MezzoDelCammin wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GTX in shoes generally does not last very long. In my experience in about a season or so there are patches/ cracks that let the water in. I guess something to do with the stresses of using a soft membrane meant to wrap around human body to support the weight of said body...

I have a pair of motorcycle boots with Gore Tex liner for about 10 years and they're still good for hours of rain. I also have no complaints about my Ecco shoes, but they only last a few years of wear.

Yeah, I commented on it below. Goretex (well, any membrane in general) is kinda crap in mechanical stress. If You can put it under some mechanical reinforcement (generally the case in motorcycle boots where You got some hard panels for protection) or don't mind some extra weight when You laminate it to some decent rub-resistant fabric, it lasts decades. None of that is unfortunately done in regular plastic running/light hiking shoes

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#194

Post by CorrectHorseBat »

refurb wrote: post #149
ComputerGuru wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how it causes cancer. Its physical properties are incompatible with human biology.

Yes it is. Asbestos has chelated iron in it that catalyzes free radicals that result in DNA damage. Saying "Its physical properties are incompatible with human biology." is not an actual answer. What physical properties?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_impact_of_asbestos#Bi...

Fibers so small they tangle up with your chromosomes are the physical properties that can cause cancer

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#195

Post by teekert »

snowwrestler wrote: post #162

I find that most writing about Gore-Tex gets the mechanism of breathability wrong. Often I’ll see references to humidity or air pressure. I also see tons of statements that Gore-Tex can’t breathe if the DWR fails. None of that is correct. Water moves through Gore-Tex via evaporation, and the driver is heat. As long as it is warmer on one side of the membrane than the other, moisture will move toward the colder side.…

Heat and/or humidity gradient? Or how does relative humidity play into this?

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#196

Post by pneumatic1 »

adrr wrote: post #54
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #39

Wonderful fabric for mountain gear. Unfortunately, like Teflon cooking pans, its amazing properties come from a coating with perfluorinated octyl sulfonate, a known endocrine disruptor: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7722801/

Teflon(brand) coated pans don't use PFOA or PFOS in their manufacture and PFOA is banned in the US for cookware.

https://epi.dph.ncdhhs.gov/oee/a_z/genx.html

One is called GenX and Chemours (DuPont) has been poisoning the city of Wilmington.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#197

Post by gorbypark »

starefossen wrote: post #164
exabrial wrote: post #18

I recently learned in order for a product to have the Gore-Tex label, not only do you have to license the process/formula from them, but you have to send engineering samples to them and they perform their own independent testing before allowing you to actually sell the product. There’s no doubt part of the success is the chemistry of the product, but the required independent testing to very high standards also likely…

From what I have herd (but I was unable to find any written source at this point) the sampling only applies to the Gore-Tex Pro Shell brand. Meaning that products needs to be sent in and certified by Gore before they can be sold under that name.

I don’t have any sources to back this up, but I’ve heard that Gore Tex Pro is actually complete fabrics supplied by Gore. “Regular” Gore-Tex has the face and backing layers added by the manufacturer, where Gore Tex Pro comes with the face and backing layers. The Pro fabrics also require being sewn in a “Gore certified” factory. A lot of this is just rumours and hearsay picked up from living in a resort town, lots of discussions about Gore Tex!

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#198

Post by adrian_b »

MezzoDelCammin wrote: post #192
adrian_b wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that the durability of Gore-Tex in shoes might depend much more on the quality of the shoes than on the material itself. I have used Gore-Tex only in shoes, but in various kinds of high-quality shoes (i.e. not cheap), either made by a less known Swiss company, or by brands like Adidas or Asics. In all cases, I have used daily the shoes for 3 to 4 years until I had to dump them, always due to an excessively…

My personal experience cuts it more along the lines of what the other materials in the shoe are. My main hiking shoes are leather Meindl Islands (on my second pair now since something like a decade - the first would probably have worked if it wasn't for an unfortunate accident). They have a decent leather upper and if You keep maintaining it, the leather alone is probably doing most of the job. On the other hand, I t…

All the shoes which I have used with Gore-Tex without problems were of leather, so that is still consistent with your experience.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#199

Post by chrisseaton »

s0rce wrote: post #145
chrisseaton wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn’t move wearing Gore-TEX in my experience. If you stop and it’s wet you put it on while stopped. You take it off when you start moving again. If you’re moving you’re going to be wet anyway (sweat) so no point trying to stay dry from the outside. Best application is sleeping bag covers. Worst application is boots. Makes no sense.

That doesn't work in cold rainy conditions, you'll freeze without something to keep you dry, sweaty and warm is better than wet and hypothermic. You don't need breathable jackets but you need the waterproof.

Short of specialist arctic conditions, if you’re moving you’re going to be a warm enough anyway.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#200

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

jerlam wrote: post #82

Gore-TEX and other waterproof breathable (WPB) membrane fabrics are ridiculously oversold to people who don't spend much time outside. The amount of breathability they offer is ludicrously low compared to something like unzipping a jacket zipper or pit vent. If you're moving at all, a WPB jacket means that you'll be drenched from the inside due to sweat, and all that water repelled by your jacket ends up on your pant…

This might be true in the midwest but definitely isn't for my area, the PNW.

Synthetics without a membrane will wet through, and I assure you no amount of wool sweater underneath will save you from misery when that happens (I love wool btw, literally half my wardrobe is wool sweaters).

Likewise, hiking through the wet vegetation you find in many of the forests here will soak through your pants even if it's not raining.

With snowboarding on Mt Hood, having a shell with a membrane is absolutely necessary on the days where it hovers between rain and snow. Probably the highest value outdoor equipment I've ever bought is a gore tex balaclava for weather like that. It's a huge difference.

Some of the new soft shell materials do a lot better than synthetics + DWR, but they still fail in conditions like the above.

So, similar to Chesterlon's fence, perhaps it isn't that all of us buying membrane clothing have been duped by marketing, but rather you simply don't know when it's useful.

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