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The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

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Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#191

Post by mrzool »

dfxm12 wrote: post #85
mrzool wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As multilingual user constantly switching between 3 languages, that's why I fully committed to the US_intl keyboard layout a while ago and ditched the abomination that is QWERTZ. Took a while to get used to, but overall it has been a very noticeable improvement. One layout to cover all languages, no more constant switching. Edit for clarity: I type "a to get ä and 'a to get à. If I want to type actual quotes followed…

Do you pick the "a for an umlaut? It seems like :a would be be typed less commonly than "a, so less need to confirm the punctuation.

I didn't pick it, that's how the layout works out of the box. I agree that :a would be probably more convenient.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#192

Post by jobigoud »

torben-friis wrote: post #174
jobigoud wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly that's the Catalan spelling.

Not that you guys have it any better (with the ç and two, rather than one, sets of accent marks)

Oh we have more than two sets of accents, we have acute, grave, circumflex and dieresis. Spanish also has ¨ I think, like in güero or piragüismo.

We don't use the accents in the same way as Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan and Italian, it doesn't mark stress.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#193

Post by Aissen »

rodelrod wrote: post #44

This space before the colon and other marks in French should actually be a narrow non-breaking space (U+202F) [0]. There's no key for it in the AZERTY layout. This has been a problem since the typewriter age. People having to get on with their jobs coped with it by using a full, breaking em-space. Unless this gets replaced automatically by the word processor, you get horrid typography and misplaced line breaks all ov…

This is partially false, because there isn't one true AZERTY layout. There are various platform implementations, with MS Windows being the most common.

In fact, french standard body AFNOR actually updated their AZERTY layout standard three years ago to include more characters, including the narrow non-breaking space. In traditional ISO-like fashion, one must pay to access this standard, but you can find an example here:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KB_-_AZERTY_-_AFNOR....

It's mapped to AltGr + Maj + Space. Now you just need to find how to install/enable this layout on the platforms you care about.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#194

Post by jheriko »

shakow wrote: post #167
cryptonector wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you fail to put a space before a colon when writing in French, what happens next? Do people point and laugh? You get disciplined? Or would French speakers accept this as a better way to use the colon character? It looks like this rule is based on old typographic considerations. Much like the Spanish Royal Academy's rule that capitalized letters carry no accents (unlike the opposite French rule that capitalized let…

I don't know, what would happen in English if you didn't capitalize the days of the week? Do people point and laugh? You get disciplined? Or would English speakers accept this as a better way to write the days of the week? No human language on Earth is in a position where it can laughs at others for their idiomatisms.

i never bother capitalising things. i was pulled up on it once, ever.

that person was wrong. :P

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#195

Post by TeeMassive »

cryptonector wrote: post #155
TeeMassive wrote: post #116

Auto insertions or anything that does things behind the users' back should go die in a fire.

Problem is that this is totally normal for CJK users, where you really want to type in a syllabic or phonetic or similar system and get drop-down selection menus for Chinese/Kanji characters to replace your writing with. Doing that for emoji is basically the same thing for CJK users. For Latin script users, however, this is very disruptive.

I dabbled in Japanese; you are not comparing the same thing.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#196

Post by zyx321 »

nephanth wrote: post #176
jobigoud wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A modern solution is simply to have non-breaking space easily accessible in your keyboard layout for when you need it. In the BÉPO layout this is at SHIFT + space. Especially simple since all double punctuations (:?!; those that require an nbsp before them) are also accessed with SHIFT.

Azerty layout could certainly map shift-space to unbreakable space too But honestly, rather than changing keyboards (which is hard), why doesn't Google just pick a shorthand that doesn't break typography rules, like `@` instead of `:`

The : allows users to discover it by coincidence when trying to type a smily :)

If triggering it by accident wasn't intended, they could have used a regular keyboard shortcut like Alt+Shift+E or even instruct users to press Win+. to use the system-wide emoji menu.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#197

Post by rodelrod »

rodelrod wrote: post #44

This space before the colon and other marks in French should actually be a narrow non-breaking space (U+202F) [0]. There's no key for it in the AZERTY layout. This has been a problem since the typewriter age. People having to get on with their jobs coped with it by using a full, breaking em-space. Unless this gets replaced automatically by the word processor, you get horrid typography and misplaced line breaks all ov…

CORRECTION: narrow non-breaking space goes before ";", "!" and "?". Before ":" you should use regular non-breaking space. That is, in France. In French-speaking Switzerland it's a narrow non-breaking space everywhere.

This is the best reference I could find: https://www.lalanguefrancaise.com/articles/espace-insecable

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#198

Post by rodelrod »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #110
rodelrod wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mostly correct, but I don't see how it contradicts my statement. Did the 646 standard account for variable-width characters at all?

Not so much contradict as wondering about the claim that it should be a specific Unicode codepoint when Unicode wasn't around when we started "computering" text (and the Académie Française can't have possibly formally declared things in terms of Unicode =) What are the actual official rules in this case (and are there links to those? Because that'd be fascinating information to read through)?

Best reference I could find is here: https://www.lalanguefrancaise.com/articles/espace-insecable

Actually before the ":" specifically there should be a regular non-breaking space, not a narrow one. Except in Switzerland. Other punctuation marks take the narrow non-breaking space.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#199

Post by TheRealPomax »

rodelrod wrote: post #198
TheRealPomax wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so much contradict as wondering about the claim that it should be a specific Unicode codepoint when Unicode wasn't around when we started "computering" text (and the Académie Française can't have possibly formally declared things in terms of Unicode =) What are the actual official rules in this case (and are there links to those? Because that'd be fascinating information to read through)?

Best reference I could find is here: https://www.lalanguefrancaise.com/articles/espace-insecable Actually before the ":" specifically there should be a regular non-breaking space, not a narrow one. Except in Switzerland. Other punctuation marks take the narrow non-breaking space.

Love how it's "recommandé", "pour des raisons esthétiques."

Which I guess means we're completely free to ignore it. Pour mêmes raisons =P

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#200

Post by cryptonector »

benhurmarcel wrote: post #187
cryptonector wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should abandon out of date typographic rules though. As a French speaker, I want to.

If we had he opportunity to simplify some rules in French, it's not the one I'd do first. How about getting rid somehow of the letter ù which is used for only one word (où)? Or replacing quatre-vingt by huitante (and same for 70 and 90) like in Switzerland? Or getting rid of œ and æ? But none of it is realistic. We officially changed from oignon to ognon 32 years ago and people still don't know about it...

I find the 20-based counting system cute. I like it. In Belgian French they dropped it, but to my ear "septante", "huitante", and "novante" sound weird!

I don't mind "où". I especially do not want the circumflex accents removed (you didn't mention it, but there was an attempt in... the 90s?).

I wouldn't mind some spelling simplifications around all those eau/eaux/oeu/oeux type word endings.

> Or getting rid of œ and æ?

Yes.

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