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App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

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Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#191

Post by cmeacham98 »

newaccount74 wrote: post #130
cmeacham98 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it doesn't seem like I'm going to get a response to this, I'll walk down the rest of the logic for completeness's sake. I think we can both agree that "all unnecessary tracking is unethical" doesn't make sense and leads to insane conclusions like "all Nginx users with IP addresses in their logs are participating in unethical tracking". So we're back to square one, where someone needs to demonstrate this type…

I think the argument is a bit nuanced, but I see where the "tracking is bad" comes from. I think everyone would agree that it would be very bad if eg. an instant messaging app logged message contents and allowed devs to look at anyones messages. On the other hand, most people would not object to an app that sends an anonymous weekly counter of which buttons were tapped. Anything between these two takes a lot of care…

Of course I agree there is nuance, but that's the point I'm trying to make. So far every argument I've seen against it in this thread is along the lines of "all tracking is bad" or "[overly broad category of tracking] is bad". Nobody seems to be willing to substantiate the more nuanced claim of why this specific type of tracking is bad.

For the record, I agree that this type of tracking should require consent (or at least be able to be turned off).

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#192

Post by cmeacham98 »

wasmitnetzen wrote: post #134
cmeacham98 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not convinced. By your logic, an nginx log with your IP in it is a similarly egregious and unethical privacy violation. If you're going to commit to "all forms of tracking are bad no matter what" I'm going to need stronger evidence than a link a page on the UN's website.

You're taking a full black-or-white approach, which isn't helpful. Yes, an nginx log contains personal data (which is why a GDPR-compliant nginx log obfuscates the IP, absent of user consent). But tracking user interactions is much more invasive, which is why the parent posters complained about it.

I'm not taking a black/white approach, as a matter of fact I'm the one pointing out that doesn't make sense.

I asked for reasons for why this tracking is bad, and I got what basically amounts to "all tracking ever is bad", and thus I'm explaining why that "all tracking is black" approach doesn't work.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#193

Post by harry8 »

coffeeling wrote: post #189
harry8 wrote: post #32

Apple: Proof you can pay and still be the product. It's like someone breaking into your house and rummaging through your desk taking photos because that suits them and there is fine print. One day as a society having a networked cpu involved in someone doing something won't make nearly every lawmaker, lawyer, judge and customer have their brain fall out of their ear and they'll actually be able to think critically ab…

A much easier example: TV manufacturers. High end TVs cost a couple arms and a leg and the UI is still infested with trackers and ads.

Sure but the apple enthusiasts tend not to accept that because they're all companies where the managment is in Asia with those making decisions raised in the various and quite different to each other Asian cultures, (Japan, China, Korea etc.) Obviously this distinction is garbage. Surveillance capitialism is an american innovation.

Apple is as american as apple-pie. "If you don't pay for it you're the product." Comes up whenever Apple create yet another problem for which the "best" solution is to pay apple even more money.

Apple customers are an Apple product they sell. Paying Apple does not remove you from that. No matter who is your provider you are the product right up until the point someone can go to jail for it. Fines are merely a business expense and treated as such.

CEO can do time for breaking the rules. Whole different approach ensues.

What rules? How to enforce? How to interpret? How to ensure the courts don't just have a mental breakdown, throw up their hands and pass because a cpu attached to a network is on the critical path of what was done that would be clearly, wholly and totally illegal if it were replaced with an army of workers and a mountain of paper and filing cabinets.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#194

Post by simondotau »

amelius wrote: post #149
simondotau wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The merits of your arguments aside, Apple is not obliged to sell you a device that satisfies your personal requirements. Apple most definitely sells you a service, which is a managed computing platform. Alternatives exist. (And if they don’t, that’s not Apple’s problem.)

It's a different discussion but I don't buy the "alternatives exists" argument. There are huge network effects. Some governments even make apps only for the duopoly. Banks also. Yes, sometimes you can use websites instead of apps, but it is not the same thing. Alternatives exist only in theory. Companies should not have absolute freedom if this means that the freedom of the consumer is restricted in any way. "Alterna…

> "Alternatives exists" sounds a lot like this fallacy

The fact that an argument is superficially similar to an informal fallacy doesn't make the argument inherently fallacious. You can easily construct a variation of the same conversation which is structurally identical but is obviously not fallacious—

  Critic: "I want a banana, but I don't like the texture."
  Respondent: "If you don't like them, don't eat them."
What the respondent said is only a fallacy if the purpose was to counter the criticism. But the criticism wasn't rejected. What was rejected was the unstated but implied assertion that the critic was entitled to a banana which satisfies them.

Now let's turn that into an "alternatives exist" argument and replay—

  Critic: "I demand a banana that I do like."
  Respondent: "I understand your desire for a banana which suits you. However nobody is obligated to supply you with such a banana. Thankfully, alternatives do exist, such as the nectarine."
That's not a fallacy. And it's not a fallacy to say that Apple is not obligated to make an iPhone which satisfies you. Especially because it's a statement of fact.

If you don't like that you can't buy an Apple branded dumbphone, and you have failed to convince Apple to make it for you, perhaps try lobbying your government? They could pass a law which requires smartphone makers to also sell dumbphones.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#195

Post by CharlesW »

ThePowerOfFuet wrote: post #183
CharlesW wrote: post #36

It's interesting that the researchers assumed turning off the transmission of device analytics would also turn off the transmission of all app analytics, whether from Apple or third parties. I also wish they would've tried Lockdown Mode, at least.

Lockdown Mode has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

Your assumption is that Lockdown Mode doesn't change the scope of telemetry data sent back to Apple, but we don't know this, which is why testing it would be interesting.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#196

Post by ThePowerOfFuet »

CharlesW wrote: post #195
ThePowerOfFuet wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lockdown Mode has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

Your assumption is that Lockdown Mode doesn't change the scope of telemetry data sent back to Apple, but we don't know this, which is why testing it would be interesting.

Your comment shows that you have misunderstood the purpose of Lockdown Mode.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#197

Post by graftak »

rafram wrote: post #180
StockHuman wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not do what you think it does: that’s the button to disconnect from currently connected devices, not to turn off radios. Similarly, the airplane mode button above it will maintain Bluetooth.

Turning Airplane Mode on and then tapping the Bluetooth icon will fully disable Bluetooth (gray background, not white). You can also just disable it in Settings. Apple’s argument, as I understand it, is that Bluetooth and WiFi don’t actually consume much battery, but non-technical users would habitually disable them to save battery and then complain that Location Services didn’t work well. Hiding the setting but keep…

Yeah but they forget about users who simple want to disable yet another tracking vector on their device.

To add insult to injury, when you automate WiFi and Bluetooth to turn off when you leave your home you need to manually affirm this action via a notification every time.

Super annoying.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#198

Post by 4ggr0 »

2fast4you wrote: post #185
4ggr0 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I created a Shortcut for that, essentially a button on my homescreen I can press which actually disables bluetooth and wifi. And when my phone is connected to wifi, mobile data gets disabled. It's not perfect, but at least I don't have to open the settings app each time.

Why do you do that though?

If I turn off bluetooth and wifi I want them to be off.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#199

Post by phendrenad2 »

Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #63
phendrenad2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like complaining that your soundproof apartment isn't giving you the right level of privacy because when you stand on a soapbox in the town square and shout "I wear pink underwear" everyone knows what color your underwear are. If you want privacy, why not, you know, use the privacy features? (Like chat messages, which are NOT sent to Google).

I'm not sure you thought this through... Apple does not care about your privacy if they are willing to sell it for $12 Billion. I don't have an iPhone, and I never complained about them. To be honest, it's not clear that you even read my message at all. For context, I wrote that comment in a different thread and it got moved here: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33527500

Who is Apple selling your data to for $12 billion?

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#200

Post by happymellon »

simondotau wrote: post #194
amelius wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a different discussion but I don't buy the "alternatives exists" argument. There are huge network effects. Some governments even make apps only for the duopoly. Banks also. Yes, sometimes you can use websites instead of apps, but it is not the same thing. Alternatives exist only in theory. Companies should not have absolute freedom if this means that the freedom of the consumer is restricted in any way. "Alterna…

> "Alternatives exists" sounds a lot like this fallacy The fact that an argument is superficially similar to an informal fallacy doesn't make the argument inherently fallacious. You can easily construct a variation of the same conversation which is structurally identical but is obviously not fallacious— Critic: "I want a banana, but I don't like the texture." Respondent: "If you don't like them, don't eat them." What…

I would like to access my bank, or my investment account, pay my tax.

However in many cases I can only do that via an app, and apps are only available on iOS or Android. Your argument a based upon me being able to buy something from an alternative manufacturer, yet here we are. And I have to purchase Apple or Android to be able to function in society.

If Apple isn't going to follow open standards yet be the largest phone manufacturer then we are going to have to regulate them. You don't have to be the only company to be a monopoly.

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