Stop Telling Women To Do Startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#191

Post by wpietri » Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 6:01 AM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #185

wpietri wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's natural isn't necessarily right; what's right isn't necessarily natural. Respectively those are the naturalistic fallacy and the moralistic fallacy. The reason people object to the naturalistic fallacy in arguments on this topic is that it is typically used to argue for the status quo by people who benefit from the status quo. If you would like to see an example of it in action, read the Texas Declaration of C…

I have no interest in ethics, certainly not universal ethics. All I'm saying is that "everybody is the same" type positions ignore reality.

Nobody is taking an "everybody is the same" position. People are taking an "everybody should have the same opportunity" position, which is an ethical stance.

The root comment in this chain claims that women's natural imperative is to raise children, with the implication that encouraging women to do startups is therefore wrong. That's also an ethical stance, one justified by the naturalistic fallacy.

All animals, people included, have built-in behaviors. But that tells us nothing about what the right behaviors are.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#192

Post by wpietri » Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 6:12 AM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #182

wpietri wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not think there's sufficient evidence that there's something broken. In which case, you aren't obliged to help fix it. But unless you have strong evidence that things are working perfectly, then by your own standard you should stop interfering with people trying to fix the problems they see.

You just illustrated the entire point of the TC article. The "problem" you see (not enough women in startups) is only a problem in your mind. Maybe this is caused by generations of gender role programming, maybe this is caused by biological differences, maybe it's caused by the divine will of the flying spaghetti monster. What right do you have to "fix" other people's voluntary decisions? What I don't hear is the arg…

It is actually a problem in quite a number of people's minds. And by the way, all problems occur only in people's minds.

I am of course not trying to fix other people's voluntary decisions. But I would like to fix a system that unfairly limits the options that people have. So if you're arguing for more freedom of choice, we're on the same side.

If you would like to apply scientific rigor to your political choices, go to it. If you would like to fund me sufficiently so that I can bring my level of rigor up from "best I can do" to "finding the Higgs boson" then I will happily cash your checks. Until then, I'll press on with what I've got.

Arguing that all action should stop until the data is perfect ignores that we are talking about real people's lives here. Around the time of the Civil War, people didn't say "Hey, let's wait a few hundred years until we can determine for sure whether or not, as the slaveholders claim, negroes are inherently inferior." Some people decided slavery was wrong, and worked to put an end to it. The same goes for women's suffrage, which isn't even 100 years old in this country. There is no particular reason we should default to the status quo if we lack data: it has been wrong before, and there's no reason to think it's perfect now.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#193

Post by Gormo » Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 6:23 AM UTC

neilk wrote: post #19

AznHisoka wrote: post #2

I love Penelope Trunk and her political incorrectness. Her advice may always be controversial, but she's never afraid to speak her mind. And she's right too about women. Their natural imperative is to raise children and nurture them - not to do startups. Most also want the social companionship from friends/family as they raise children (which is missing today as most people don't live near extended family), but they…

This might have been just a poor choice of words, but beware the naturalistic fallacy. Trunk believes that more women are choosing not to do startups. That's not exactly the same thing as saying it's their "natural imperative". Because then those who choose otherwise are being "unnatural". Also, the "natural imperative" thing implies that our current state of affairs is somehow the only possibility. Maybe the way inv…

Do you believe that the conception of "natural imperative" she's using refers to a deterministic binary, and not a normal distribution with a somewhat shifted mean in relation to that of men?

Treating individuals as mere instances of categories is a bit absurd, isn't it?

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#194

Post by burgerbrain » Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 6:41 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #191

burgerbrain wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no interest in ethics, certainly not universal ethics. All I'm saying is that "everybody is the same" type positions ignore reality.

Nobody is taking an "everybody is the same" position. People are taking an "everybody should have the same opportunity" position, which is an ethical stance. The root comment in this chain claims that women's natural imperative is to raise children, with the implication that encouraging women to do startups is therefore wrong. That's also an ethical stance, one justified by the naturalistic fallacy. All animals, peop…

"everybody should have the same opportunity"

I don't believe anybody is seriously opposing that position. I certainly am not.

It seems to me that you are seeing an argument where none exists.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#195

Post by peterwwillis » Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 7:10 AM UTC

My theory is this post, along with this woman's online identity, is an elaborate troll on feminism. Let's explore.

"Here is a Blueprint for a Woman’s Life which I published. It is full of recommendations for how to make choices based on what we know women really want for themselves. It does not involve getting VC funding."

Hmm. It's kind of weird for anybody to pretend they can tell anyone else how to live their life, since figuring out how to life your life in your own way is what makes it your life and not someone else's. But whatever. Let's read a bit into this thing and see what she talks about...

She posted a list of things all women should be doing with their life. Here's the list verbatim (from http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/08/16/blueprint-for-a-wom...):

  1. Do less homework.
  2. Get plastic surgery.
  3. Go to business school right out of the gate.
  4. Start early looking for a husband seriously.
  5. Milk maternity leave for all it's worth.
  6. Guard your marriage obsessively.
  7. Practice austerity.
  8. Do a startup with a guy.
  9. If you can't get men to do a startup with you, do a lifestyle business.
  10. Homeschool. Your kids will be screwed if you don't.
  11. Spend money on household help and Botox to keep more doors open longer.
  12. Break the mold in your 40s.

All of that sounds like wonderful advice. It's a really thought-provoking and insightful read. Her only problem is she doesn't go far enough. First of all, you want to marry rich. That way you don't have to work, much less create a start-up. Actually wait, that was the whole point of the techcrunch post, so nevermind.

Before you liberal feminist sissies get all huffy, she clearly states "I know that's not good for feminism. But none of this post is." So please don't fret over whether or not she's setting women back by 60+ years as she is probably typing this story from the kitchen.

(p.s. this is the woman who did the tweet about having a miscarriage during a board meeting - http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/nov/06/penelope-...)

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#196

Post by wpietri » Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 8:53 AM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #194

wpietri wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is taking an "everybody is the same" position. People are taking an "everybody should have the same opportunity" position, which is an ethical stance. The root comment in this chain claims that women's natural imperative is to raise children, with the implication that encouraging women to do startups is therefore wrong. That's also an ethical stance, one justified by the naturalistic fallacy. All animals, peop…

"everybody should have the same opportunity" I don't believe anybody is seriously opposing that position. I certainly am not. It seems to me that you are seeing an argument where none exists.

You expressed puzzlement that somebody was objecting to using the natural fallacy to justify discrimination. I tried to explain.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#197

Post by pwaring » Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 10:25 AM UTC

There seems to be an assumption within the tech industry that startup == total dedication to the company, including 60 hour weeks and a lack of family time (which might put some people - male and female - off). I don't understand why this has to be the case.

I work for a startup in another industry (wholesale insurance) and 90% of our staff are female. People work 8:30-5 Mon-Fri and rarely do any overtime. If there's a programming/development project which needs to be done, I estimate how it will take and we decide if it's worth the cost, including the opportunity cost of what we could have worked on instead.

If tech startups were run properly, with sensible deadlines, fixed hours and no 'crunch sessions' (if you need these on a regular basis, your project management is broken) they would probably attract a far wider range of people.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#198

Post by stickfigure » Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 2:31 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #192

stickfigure wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just illustrated the entire point of the TC article. The "problem" you see (not enough women in startups) is only a problem in your mind. Maybe this is caused by generations of gender role programming, maybe this is caused by biological differences, maybe it's caused by the divine will of the flying spaghetti monster. What right do you have to "fix" other people's voluntary decisions? What I don't hear is the arg…

It is actually a problem in quite a number of people's minds. And by the way, all problems occur only in people's minds. I am of course not trying to fix other people's voluntary decisions. But I would like to fix a system that unfairly limits the options that people have. So if you're arguing for more freedom of choice, we're on the same side. If you would like to apply scientific rigor to your political choices, go…

There is a clear and obvious difference between "not enough women found startups" and slavery/women's suffrage:

* If you asked a slave what prevents him from being free, he/she can point at the specific individuals and institutions restricting his freedom. The slave owner, the laws.

* If you asked an American woman in 1919 what is holding back her right to vote in federal elections, she can clearly point at the US constitution.

In both cases, these situations were (rightly) fixed. On the other hand, not even the gurus of HN can come up with a coherent explanation why there aren't more women in tech startups. It's not like women are marching in the street demanding that we repeal the ban on female CEOs. The current outcome is a result of voluntary decisions. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a higher standard of evidence before we start telling people "you think wrong".

FWIW, I also find it lamentable that the tech industry is a sausage-fest. But that's my problem. If you told my partner that she's broken because she doesn't want to work in technology, she'd tell you to f*ck off and go meddle in someone else's life.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#199

Post by burgerbrain » Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 4:19 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #196

burgerbrain wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"everybody should have the same opportunity" I don't believe anybody is seriously opposing that position. I certainly am not. It seems to me that you are seeing an argument where none exists.

You expressed puzzlement that somebody was objecting to using the natural fallacy to justify discrimination. I tried to explain.

No, I really don't think that is what I did.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#200

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 5:31 PM UTC

natrius wrote: post #184

DaniFong wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be as explicit as possible: poor functioning as a result of discriminatory stereotypes is no evidence of innate inferiority, be it in women or men or whomever. It is evidence of discriminatory stereotypes, that is all.

For everyone's sake, allow me to try to rephrase yummyfajitas's argument. Consider several groups of equal ability and equal vulnerability to stereotype threat. On average, the groups that have more negative stereotypes directed toward them will perform worse. Given two people of equal ability, a purely rational actor trying to choose a member of their team will choose the one to which fewer negative stereotypes appl…

Yes, and as a special case of this, if what DaniFong says is true and generalizes beyond the math GRE", non-Asian women will exhibit inferior math performance in the contemporary US*. Similarly, if zasz's claims about athletic performance stereotypes are true, then non-black men will be inferior athletes.

Both of these predictions seem to concur with reality, so I'd suggest maybe Danifong's theory has something going for it.