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Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#191

Post by scarface74 »

thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #160
scarface74 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what exactly are “consumers” clamoring for that are not currently being delivered?

>> So what exactly are “consumers” clamoring for that are not currently being delivered? Until other choices are available, people tend to accept the default or keep on doing what was done in the past. There is a segment of consumers that would like choices beyond Apple and Google mobile operating systems: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2019/jul/04/c... https://vivaldi.com/blog/technology/smartphones-…

You really don’t think you’re out of touch with what most users want?

> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2019/jul/04/c...

Yes because using an operating system from the other 1 trillion dollar market cap company is going to be a better alternative. Meet the new boss…

> https://vivaldi.com/blog/technology/smartphones-5-alternativ...

And those alternatives are already out there and no one wants them in a first approximation to no one

> https://www.pcmag.com/picks/break-away-from-android-ios-7-fr...

Okay. So they are “out there to try”. Have the majority of users been clamoring for it?

> Personally, I would like to see more "convergence" devices that let the little computer I carry around with me be anything I want it to be: a programmable general purpose computer, a streaming media server, or whatever else I want.

And you are in the modernity and so much so that it wouldn’t be a profitable business. Do you think Microsoft is going to give you that?

> Walled gardens are not where innovation happens because the gardeners uproot whatever does not meet their vision.

Where are all of the “innovations” that the majority of people care about - or even enough to make a profitable business - on Android where you can sideload and have third party web browser engines?

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#192

Post by dtx1 »

indrora wrote: post #153
dtx1 wrote: post #90

And here's the difference between Microsoft and Apple: When Apple switches to ARM, people believe them. When Microsoft switches to arm, people ignore them. Why? Because Microsoft only ever half-asses such changes (see the terrible SOC in this).

They have no better choice. Name me, today, a desktop class ARM SoC that isn't made by Apple and represents the median performance band of the class. Fundamentally, ARM Holdings is what Antitrust legislation was supposed to break down. They own the "ARM" name and control who can license the ARM IP and most importantly, how . Ampere, the folks behind a lot of ARM servers, are by contract barred from getting into the m…

Let me play my tiny violin for the Gigacorporation Microsoft that was so unfairly treated by ARM that they just had to take "Whatever Qualcomm will ship them". Poor Multi Billion Dollar, they never had a chance to compete on a fair playing ground.

Nah, this is just organizational incompetence. The same reason we got cortana, windows 8 or adds in the start bar.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#193

Post by smoldesu »

VTimofeenko wrote: post #183
smoldesu wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or full-featured Linux, for that matter.

Arm64 vms seem to be working great. And pretty soon Asahi will get to the point of being completely usable as a daily driver

Why would I buy a Mac Mini for Linux when devices like this exist? The Qualcomm chip is officially supported and much cheaper than buying the Mac. Seems to be much less hassle and better value on the Microsoft side of things.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#194

Post by wmf »

Sakos wrote: post #91
awill wrote: post #78

The difference here is that the M1 in the M1 mac mini is faster than Apple's phone SoC (the A16). The Qualcomm 8cx gen 3 (what a terrible name) in this machine is NOT faster than even Qualcomm's phone SoC (the 8 gen 1), let alone Apple's phone SoC. It's absurd to be selling a desktop PC that's weaker than a phone.

It's a chicken or the egg dilemma. Non-Apple ARM is too slow, so nobody wants Windows ARM, and nobody wants Windows ARM, so nobody is seriously working on consumer-targeted ARM. It will probably fail because Microsoft is generally bad at managing and marketing their hardware projects and coordinating with manufacturers and retail partners. Also, yeah, the pricing and performance is abysmal. But there is some sense to…

The solution to chicken-or-egg problems is known: you spend money to just overpower the problem. But MS and Qualcomm aren't doing that; they're half-assing their ARM hardware to save a little money.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#196

Post by kstrauser »

bigmattystyles wrote: post #142
Sakos wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a chicken or the egg dilemma. Non-Apple ARM is too slow, so nobody wants Windows ARM, and nobody wants Windows ARM, so nobody is seriously working on consumer-targeted ARM. It will probably fail because Microsoft is generally bad at managing and marketing their hardware projects and coordinating with manufacturers and retail partners. Also, yeah, the pricing and performance is abysmal. But there is some sense to…

>> Also, frankly, I'm okay with Microsoft failing at projects like this. We don't need another Apple-like presence on the market. Don't we?

I’ve gotta agree with you there. I love my Apple gear, but I hear and understand the criticisms against them. The above argument sounds to me like “you think one monopolist is bad? Wait until there are 2 of them!”

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#197

Post by Joe_Boogz »

It appears the consensus is HN is hesitant about the Windows on ARM push. I really want this to succeed.

If this gains traction then we should start seeing support for windows laptops on ARM. As a dev who prefers windows but has a m1 MacBook b/c of the battery life I really hope this works out.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#198

Post by dtx1 »

rchaud wrote: post #189
dtx1 wrote: post #90

And here's the difference between Microsoft and Apple: When Apple switches to ARM, people believe them. When Microsoft switches to arm, people ignore them. Why? Because Microsoft only ever half-asses such changes (see the terrible SOC in this).

I think another considerable difference is that Windows global footprint is 10x that of MacOS, so Microsoft has to keep both backwards compatibility and OEM's production plans in mind. There is nothing for people to believe or not believe. MS cannot cannot discontinue x86 overnight because their OS is used by a much larger proportion of the world.

> There is nothing for people to believe or not believe. MS cannot cannot discontinue x86 overnight because their OS is used by a much larger proportion of the world.

Apple managed a competent compatibility layer, albeit with some special sauce in the SOC to make it fast. Is that too much to ask from Microsoft?

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#199

Post by Spivak »

kcb wrote: post #106
awill wrote: post #78

The difference here is that the M1 in the M1 mac mini is faster than Apple's phone SoC (the A16). The Qualcomm 8cx gen 3 (what a terrible name) in this machine is NOT faster than even Qualcomm's phone SoC (the 8 gen 1), let alone Apple's phone SoC. It's absurd to be selling a desktop PC that's weaker than a phone.

8cx gen 3 is definitely faster multicore and about the same singlecore. The 8cx chips also have a wider memory bus and pretty massive GPU in comparison the the mobile parts. Looks like also far better cooling than a phone or thin and light laptop here as well.

Yeah I don't know what the parent is talking about Gen 3 is lightyears ahead of Gen 1 of this line of chips. Passmark has it at 4k for Gen 1 and 11k for Gen 3.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#200

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

Tomte wrote: post #136
dihydro wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac Mini has no option for 32GB of RAM, and with 512GB of SSD storage is $899. How is that similar in price to $599?

There are two nines. Pretty similar, I'd say.

Performing a substring comparison on integers isn't a useful operation.
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