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Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

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Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#191

Post by phpisthebest »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #177
marvin wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it also work to just make everything cheaper for everyone? Housing has increased so much in cost that I wouldn't be surprised that just having housing back to 1980s price levels would give most families enough breathing room with just unpaid leave.

Of course that would work, but that requires the economy to not adapt itself to the new prices, which requires politicians to step in and prevent the richer people from buying up things which makes would-be families feel too uneasy about starting a family. It'd be far more desirable to return to situations where most of the budget is spent on luxury and only a little is spent on any kind of milestone, but that's a ca…

>> which requires politicians to step in

Ironically politicians "stepping in" is the biggest reason cost of living is going up. Regulations preventing new housing, limiting new housing, etc. Monetary policies and massive debt fueled spending spree's causing massive inflation, draconian lock downs disrupting supply chains, irresponsible "climate" policies preventing farmers from growing food affordably, the 100's of other ways "politicians stepping in " to "solve" a problem in the process making everyone worse off

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#192

Post by camgunz »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #83
volepole wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your boss is just some other person. If he thinks he's superior to anyone else, he can fuck right off. He'll end up as worm food just like the rest of us.

Most certainly but that’s not the point. The point is that companies are structured so that division of labour flows from a core group deciding the strategical priorities towards more specialised groups and ultimately line workers through levels of organisation making tasks more and more specific along the way. As a salaried worker, provided it was in your contract, you can’t entirely refuse to do what’s asked of you…

I think you're right about things like chain of command; most companies are hierarchical in this way. But I think there's a fallacy that's widely believed that people "at the top" see things more clearly than those... not at the "top". I think we see very little no matter where we are, and we have to rely on each other to get the whole picture. To me, this indicates that a more flat structure makes sense: I'm good at the tech thing, you're good at the budgeting thing, if suddenly you stop being good at the budgeting thing I want someone else to do it, and vice versa.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#193

Post by pridkett »

licebmi__at__ wrote: post #157
ineedasername wrote: post #80

he was ordered to take part in a virtual training period called a "Corrective Action Program." This is the sort of name given to processes uses when an employee is already performing below expectations. (Where I work it’s a more euphemistic Performance Improvement). If that’s the case here then his firing was a bit less sudden than it appears. Though the entire monitoring process seems draconian regardless.

Well, I worked on a company with a performance program (I can really remember the exact euphemism), in which all new employees were supposed to take part when joining, and then if marked as low performer go through it again, with a neat addition... random employees were also selected to go through it again just because.

That’s not that terrible idea - it removes some of the stigma and potentially helps ensure the program provides value rather than just being a checkbox on the way to termination.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#194

Post by lucb1e »

ghaff wrote: post #147
lucb1e wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Usually we flash the double V for Victory sign and say “Peace out!” when that’s the case. It’s fun. Sounds like a good way to burn bridges. If I'd show up to work one day and tell them to suck it up for the next few months of planned projects, I do know what kind of reference my boss would provide to future employers. It's not about loyalty or something, but so long as there isn't anything egregious, it does seem r…

>it does seem reasonable to me that both sides can expect a notice periods Two weeks is pretty customary and normal in the US. A few months of planned projects being a reason you "can't" leave really is not. I generally have projects in some stage of planning going out a while. That wouldn't mean I'm effectively tied to an employer for te duration.

Being booked out 2-5 months ahead is typical for us. Two weeks is effectively zero notice period because you'll almost always have more remaining days of paid time off than that. If we had to account for N people being able to leave effectively on the spot, we'd not be able to sell more than 8-N persons concurrently (we're a small team), at least not more than a few days ahead. At N=1 person, that's already 13% lower turnover for the whole company.

After the trial/probation period where this notice period is not in effect, when I know what the employment is like, I'd much rather get a 13% higher salary and, should I choose to quit, wrap things up properly and do the job for 2-3 more months. (The notice period is not as long as we schedule ahead for: with 2 months' notice, we can find a good freelancer and get the paperwork done without time pressure, or the client can still find another firm in the worst case.)

Since I was fine with doing this job for years now, those months seem insignificant for the benefits that go both ways.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#196

Post by foepys »

whoooooo123 wrote: post #120
myko wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> especially now with the proxy war between US and Russia This is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Ukraine nor Russia started this conflict at the behest or instigation of the US. The US (and NATO, the entire western world really) are supportive of Ukraine but it's important to note that Ukraine is not a puppet of the US and that Putin started this conflict.

The war is "between" Russia and Ukraine but the US is funding and arming Ukraine because the US wants to hurt Russia. How is that not the dictionary definition of a "proxy war"? Swap the US and Russia and replace "Ukraine" with "North Vietnam" and you have a historical conflict which everyone agrees was a proxy war. How is this different?

Basically all of Europe is arming Ukraine because Europe knows that if Russia takes Ukraine, Russia will eventually want to annex all other ex-USSR states as well. If not more.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#197

Post by bbbobbb »

phpisthebest wrote: post #141
bbbobbb wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry what extra work? you know the company is able to hire more people right?

You know companies have budgets right? you can not just "hire more people" and remain profitable, no profit no company. Companies are not charities created to employ people. So sure if only 1 person is off on leave most likely another person could be hired But 5 years of protected leave..... What percentage of the work force is going to be out on that? Also since it is very hard to terminate someone in the EU, what h…

For one thing, most companies have hard time keeping employees working for them so this 'we have hired too many good workers and now we have to get rid of them' does not happen nearly as often. As others have pointed out, it's not a 5 year leave. Assuming it one to two years and assuming you simply cannot afford to have more people on payroll it's completely OK to hire somebody specifically for a year or two. Not all work contracts are indefinite.

I have no kids, don't plan on having any but it's kind of crazy how 'hail corporate' some cultures are. We're humans after all. Let people spend some time with their newborns instead of forcing them to make more money for somebody 3 weeks after giving birth.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#198

Post by Xelynega »

phpisthebest wrote: post #155
trevvr wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not a hot take my friend? Do you pay your taxes? Sales taxes? Does the company you work for pay their taxes? Do you intend on retiring with a pension at some point? Rising tides and boats comes to mind.

Well now we are going to get into more unpopular hot takes, because IMO income based taxation is theft.... I do not plain on retiring, and if I did I do not expect government social security (I am in the US) will be there to fund it so I do have a private retirement account that currently the US Monetary policy and government regulations/spending is doing its level best to destroy

> IMO income based taxation is theft....

How could income based taxation be theft unless we're considering all profit theft? Either it's immoral for someone with power over you to demand part of the value you produce or it isn't.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#199

Post by hallway_monitor »

marvin wrote: post #165
em-bee wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which is exactly the point. birthrate is already bad enough as it is. for the moment this is compensated with immigration, but eventually support for parenting may have to increase even further if we want to keep the birthrate up.

Wouldn't it also work to just make everything cheaper for everyone? Housing has increased so much in cost that I wouldn't be surprised that just having housing back to 1980s price levels would give most families enough breathing room with just unpaid leave.

Better yet, shouldn't we just make everything free for everyone? Housing costs are outrageous. It would be great if houses were free. And food too. And cars and clothing. I guess the only problem is then everyone's wage would have to be $0 as well.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#200

Post by isodev »

phpisthebest wrote: post #141
bbbobbb wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry what extra work? you know the company is able to hire more people right?

You know companies have budgets right? you can not just "hire more people" and remain profitable, no profit no company. Companies are not charities created to employ people. So sure if only 1 person is off on leave most likely another person could be hired But 5 years of protected leave..... What percentage of the work force is going to be out on that? Also since it is very hard to terminate someone in the EU, what h…

> Companies are not charities created to employ people.

And employees are not charities for their employers! If you can't afford the staff needed for a given task, perhaps you should pivot to something else.

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