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Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

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Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#191

Post by rthomas6 »

mint2 wrote: post #100
rthomas6 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the people who can't afford a car because of these features?

What about the people who can’t afford cars due to the expensive catalytic converters? Are those bad too?

I understand your point, the features are useful and they do save lives. It's just... where do you draw the line? You can't practically prioritize life infinitely above every other concern. If you did, the solution would be to not drive at all.

Like, maybe we can defray the costs of safety in a different way, such that cars, which are unfortunately a need for a lot of Americans, aren't outpacing inflation so badly. Such as increase licensing restrictions and make drivers' tests more comprehensive. Or lowering speed limits and enforcing them more strictly. These solutions do not have the effect of adding $10k to the cost of cars, which harms poorer Americans much more than wealthier Americans.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#192

Post by davewritescode »

xanathar wrote: post #182
SoftTalker wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric motors draw more current when starting up and when delivering high torque. It's conceivable that with a transmission, maximum current draw could be lowered, perhaps leading to longer-lived batteries or lower demand for battery cooling, smaller gauge wiring, smaller motors, or other cost savings. Don't know for sure on any of this, but it seems plausible. On the other hand, if it really made a difference, why…

I remember reading somewhere that the estimated efficiency gain of having 2 gears on the Taycan is 5%. On a typical 60kWh battery car, that's 3kWh... hardly worth the effort nor the cost. On the Taycan it makes sense because top speed. For any "normal" EV where top speed is not a concern, it's probably not a choice that makes sense.

I suspect it makes a big difference in range at higher speeds that Germans and Americans drive at on the highway. One of the most disappointing things about the Model3 is how quickly the range starts to dip at left lane traffic speeds here in the Northeast. There’s large stretches of the drive between NYC and Boston that have middle and left lane traffic moving at 80 MPH and what’s an easy task for a gas car means adding a recharge stop for anything except the Model3 Long Range.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#193

Post by davewritescode »

poutine wrote: post #129
kaitai wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I stick with a manual transmission -- far better handling in snow. Have not asked my EV peers how it's working for them.

As a former driver of many Audi quattros and a Canadian who lives on top of a hill with a AWD Tesla 3 I can say it's the best handling car in snow that I've driven (given clearance limits of a sedan). The instant reaction speed of its electric traction control to slippage will vastly outperform any manual transmission. You can drive like an idiot with the pedal to the floor and the car sorts itself out.

The real problem with electric cars and modern cars in general in the snow is the sheer weight of the vehicles makes it harder to stop in an emergency.

Most of the crummy AWD systems they throw in the majority of cars these days can get you unstuck or up a hill so that’s not a major advantage.

Also, car makers tend to throw on low friction tires on electric cars to increase range which invites another set of problems.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#194

Post by Taniwha »

Animats wrote: post #175
hbarka wrote: post #131

Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only a…

> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. I…

Leaf's switch in and out of the B regen by shifting into drive a 2nd time - however they also have an "eco mode" switch on the steering wheel - if you normally drive with it on then pressing it does feel a lot like a shift up

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#195

Post by Goz3rr »

Animats wrote: post #175
hbarka wrote: post #131

Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only a…

> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. I…

> The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side.

Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have a two speed gearbox. From when I drove the e-tron GT this shifting was almost completely imperceptible, no lurching of any kind even when launching it in sport mode. If you're driving in anything other than sport mode the car will spend most of its time in second gear anyways, not even using it from a standstill.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#196

Post by davewritescode »

jpollock wrote: post #123
robryk wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).

I'm curious on the relative performance of traction control? Isn't the goal of traction control to limit the power to the wheel? Reading on how TCS works [1], it seems it applies the brake and may limit power from the engine? [1] https://www.scienceabc.com/innovation/what-is-a-traction-con...

Traction control has all sorts of tricks it can use to get you pointed in the right direction. Traction control systems can brake individual wheels to apply rotational torque to counter excessive yaw like when the back tires come loose and the back swings out, the car can induce rotation in the opposite direction to sort things out before they get too dangerous.

The other common case is when taking off in a straight line, the car can limit power in excess of what the wheels are capable of putting down. This is usually accomplished with a combination of limiting power and in some cases braking individual wheels as they lose traction to simulate the effects of having a differential.

Electric cars do better much in the latter case because of how quickly they can limit power compared to an engine. It’s one of the reasons electric cars dominate 0-60 tests because they can adjust power hundreds of times a second whereas that’s simply not possible with a gas engine.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#197

Post by davewritescode »

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #84
consp wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Current car does this when the the petrol engine kicks in (Hybrid with CVT), it does a tiny bit of "gear simulation" with the engine if you floor it and it uses the petrol engine together with the electric one and it adds a bit more of fake engine sound though the speakers to make it more obvious. Strange thing is they chose to only have "three gears", no matter at what speed you do it the max is two shifts. Not t…

Nissan does this with their CVTs as well. Apparently they found that people didn't really like the "all one gear" feel, so they programmed in "gear changes" where the CVT changes ratio like an automatic. You still get the CVT advantage when going up a hill or stomping on the accelerator, though. They've been phasing out their CVTs in favor of traditional automatics, though.

They’re phasing them out because they’re total junk. The Jatco CVT is so unreliable it’s been known to die at 30k miles and has cost Nissan a fortune in lawsuits and recalls.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#198

Post by timc3 »

Goz3rr wrote: post #195
Animats wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. I…

> The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side. Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have a two speed gearbox. From when I drove the e-tron GT…

I can feel it on my Taycan (it’s one of the most powerful models) but it’s not bad at all.

Porsche has a lot of experience with gearboxes which probably explains why they can build a reliable one when dealing with the power and torque.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#199

Post by LorenPechtel »

Animats wrote: post #175
hbarka wrote: post #131

Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only a…

> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. I…

Yeah, I can definitely see merit to having a control that alters the responsiveness of the go pedal. I have near zero experience behind the wheel of an electric but back in the days of stick I appreciated having a low gear to creep around in and would actually have liked a lower gear occasionally.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#200

Post by LorenPechtel »

lokedhs wrote: post #165
hbarka wrote: post #131

Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only a…

I have the Niro EV, and it was my first EV. The paddle shifters are amazing, and you get used to them very quickly. I recently rented another EV and I was surprised it wasn't there. Most of the time I can drive without even touching the brake pedal, since you can hold the left paddle and it will engage maximum engine braking, which it quite powerful. This helps with battery as well since there is less energy loss whe…

I thought anything other than really hard braking didn't actually happen anyway, it was actually done with regen.
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