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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#191
post #166
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question in my mind is how can a country like Portugal grow something home grown, industry/economy wise to ameliorate this situation? Ukraine had traditional industries but it seems like the IT/knowledge worker base they built up over the past 5-10 years seems to be softening some of the economic blows of the war for them, but I can't imaging IT is the answer to every country...

Portuguese IT is pretty good in general, and that could easily have been part of the solution. The problem is that there was a large exodus of talent in the early 2010s (including yours truly), and that has caused some serious brain drain.

I remember Passos Coelho suggesting that the young will need to emigrate for work, circa the time of the crisis/austerity.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#192
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question in my mind is how can a country like Portugal grow something home grown, industry/economy wise to ameliorate this situation? Ukraine had traditional industries but it seems like the IT/knowledge worker base they built up over the past 5-10 years seems to be softening some of the economic blows of the war for them, but I can't imaging IT is the answer to every country...

Unfortunately education in Portugal is one of the worst in Europe. It would need a massive investment with a visionary direction to start to see results 15 years later. 4-year terms do not lend themselves well to long-term national projects like that. Ironically, excellent education might be one of the most positive legacies the Communist regimes left to Eastern European countries, and part of why countries like Esto…

Incorrect. Education in Portugal was one of the worst in Europe.

Portugal is the only country in the OECD that has consistently risen in PISA scores since their inception in 2000.

Portugal was bottom of the table in 2000, and now it's at middle. Not the best, but not the worst either.

Source: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-59031-4_...

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#193
Europe is facing complete economic collapse in the face of hyper-inflation, energy shortages, the Euro collapsing in value and rising interest rates.

It's a shame that the continent that was once the birthplace of democracy, the scientific method, the industrial revolution and socialism has been reduced to nothing more than an open-air museum for wealthy Americans and a refugee centre for the victims of their wars.

We need strong leaders who will put Europe first.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#194
post #10

I do think that a state should exist primarily for the benefit of its citizens but this view had long been decried xenophobic at best. However, you can't have it both ways. If > countless stories of flats left uninhabited by some rich person who arrived at the building, bought two flats so that he could get a visa, and doesn’t even live there then clearly not > wealthy foreigners from all over the world, to whom we o…

Yeah, the article wants to argue both sides of every issue.

However,

> countless stories of flats left uninhabited by some rich person who arrived at the building, bought two flats so that he could get a visa, and doesn’t even live there

So, the way it works is, as a golden visa applicant, you have to spend 7 days in the first year. The next 2 years, a combined 15 days (which can be spread whichever way you like). Subsequent renewals are different (21 days / 3 years). You can already live there when you apply, but you are not _required_ to.

You have to maintain your investment for at least 5 years (or until you become a permanent resident) and renew the golden visa twice. Then you can apply for permanent residency (or citizenship if you qualify), if you want to.

It's entirely conceivable that people would buy property and only vacation there. Which, if we are honest, is not a problem, given that large cities are excluded from the program. And cheaper housing does not qualify, either. So you would be taking property that's pretty expensive already (€500,000, €400,000 for low density areas) - OR requires the property to be older than 30 years old, and a minimum of €350,000 (or €280,000 in low density areas).

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#195
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore's public housing is propped up by the fact that they have a huge proportion of their population that are totally ineligible for it, but pay the taxes to support it. I think something like only 60% of Singapore has the citizenship or correct criteria of permanent residency to obtain public housing. If the US can put 40% of its working populace into some lower-rights having class, like strip their citizenship…

I'm not talking about how real estate works there, but how they became a sophisticated and highly competitive economy in a few decades.

[deleted]

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#196
post #77
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Portuguese case is quite different, I think. Canada has a well-developed and diversified economy. Portugal needs to import a lot from the world, but has very little to offer in exchange. They found something: their real estate and city center spaces. The country NEEDS this foreign income. It's not a self-sustainable economy and the world won't work for them for free. If the Portuguese want to solve this issue, on…

The question in my mind is how can a country like Portugal grow something home grown, industry/economy wise to ameliorate this situation? Ukraine had traditional industries but it seems like the IT/knowledge worker base they built up over the past 5-10 years seems to be softening some of the economic blows of the war for them, but I can't imaging IT is the answer to every country...

They could start building housing

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#197
post #10

I do think that a state should exist primarily for the benefit of its citizens but this view had long been decried xenophobic at best. However, you can't have it both ways. If > countless stories of flats left uninhabited by some rich person who arrived at the building, bought two flats so that he could get a visa, and doesn’t even live there then clearly not > wealthy foreigners from all over the world, to whom we o…

Not contradictory at all - they buy property, sit on it, and vacation there

No mention of the vast holdings the church or bombeiros have in Lisbon and the insane amount of empty un-renovated buildings that are essentially just place-holders until the right CML-connected developers show-up with lots of money?

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore's public housing is propped up by the fact that they have a huge proportion of their population that are totally ineligible for it, but pay the taxes to support it. I think something like only 60% of Singapore has the citizenship or correct criteria of permanent residency to obtain public housing. If the US can put 40% of its working populace into some lower-rights having class, like strip their citizenship…

> If the US can put 40% of its working populace into some lower-rights having class, like strip their citizenship, we would have a comparable public housing tax base. The US is already working on this, albeit unintentionally. Undocumented immigrants were at 3.3% of the population in 2016 and the numbers have absolutely exploded since the beginning of the Biden administration, with 2 million apprehensions so far for i…

A record number of arrests can mean there is a record number of immigrants but does not guarantee that is the cause. Increased enforcement of the border would also lead to higher arrests and subsequently reduce the inflow of immigration

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#199
Very difficult to change because, in the "Pax Neoliberalia" world we live in, profits are Sacrosanct - and the higher the capital concentration, the holier so. But some straightforward fixes:

1. Flood the market with affordable state housing, Austria-style - with the bonus of building new, boosting the national economy.

2. Create very progressive (rapidly rising) taxes based on property value - making untenable the current practice of parking money and profit by simply buying & holding empty flats and the like.

3. Raise salaries - currently portuguese salaries, and their weight on GDP, rank the lowest in the EU.

(and no, it won't create an inflation spiral: the current inflation spike is, first and foremost, the result of a supply shock, price-gouging and speculative/cartel practices - corporate profits being at a record high is proof of that)

Unfortunately, incentives are heavily stacked on leaving things as they are, as the ruling class is mostly made up of the landlord class, and, is not sensitive to (sometimes even not aware of) the struggles of assetless commoners that only earn income from their (low) salaried labor. Or, even worse, stands to lose their current large gains on capital/assets if this is fixed - and most portuguese media outlets trumpet their - private - master's voice and interests. Additionally, just leaving things as they are, also scores brownie points with the EU by making the Government (even if "center-left") appear "frugal". And PM Costa has personal ambitions for future EU high office.

(...who will be the next head of the European Commission or the European Council?)

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