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Why is Snowflake so expensive

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191–200 of 217 posts

Re: Why is Snowflake so expensive

#191
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That's exactly the OP's point: It's up to you to remember to do the extra work necessary to avoid shooting yourself in the foot by default.

Depends who the "you" is; someone just getting started with Cloud, or a savvy enterprise operator? GCP has sided with an "easy out of the box experience". For example, a new project has a "default" network with some permissive firewall rules. A savvy operator wouldn't build things this way, but for a first time user, the cloud is daunting and a JustWorks™ experience gets them moving quickly (e.g. so they can SSH into…

So they have a system for enforcing rules but still haven't built the rule that would reduce their revenue - seems like an example in favor of the article.

Re: Why is Snowflake so expensive

#192
post #7

Great article. On the surface, it's about Snowflake. At a deeper level, the article is about the perverse incentives motivating SaaS businesses to do seemingly dumb, inefficient things and avoid seemingly obvious optimizations by default. Many SaaS businesses are perfectly happy to let customers shoot themselves in the foot if it generates more revenue. The BigQuery example (presently, by default, `select * from tabl…

It's a terrible article. The author misunderstands competition and how much it drives products in this area. Snowflake is incentivized to make their product better on every dimension. If Snowflake don't improve, customers will leave in droves - like when they moved to Snowflake . In practice, as has been pointed out in other comments, they do improve their performance (for competitive reasons) and it does cost them m…

It is a terrible article. I’ve been on the engineering side of these big data platforms including snowflake in its early days, Paraccel (redshift’s code ancestor), redshift, and others you probably use but don’t realize are actually hyper scale database engines. The author missed the mark consistently. I chortled when he discussed the redshift WLM which I helped design a very long time ago and it’s absolute garbage. Snowflakes entire point is you can decouple the storage and the database from the warehouse query engine to provide total isolation from noisy neighbors. If you’re encountering noisy neighbors you’re using the product entirely wrong.

And you’re right. The motivation snowflake has to improve is survival. It’s not like their architecture is impossible to replicate. Redshift is doing a total reorganization of the product and rewrite to compete more directly with snowflake (redshift aqua etc).

They also seem to completely discount the value of SaaS outsourcing database and storage operations to snowflake whose only focus is operating the database product. Running your own clusters is an exercise that seems smart in the first few months then like a puppy when it grows up you’re stuck with a dog. If you love dogs and train them well then great. But fact is most people are terrible dog owners, and the same is true for MPP clusters. Being able to focus on the query management operations exclusively is really ideal. Highly stateful distributed products are a PITA.

He also rants about snowflake not telling him the hardware. Snowflake runs in ec2, gcp, azure. You can literally guess the hardware types - there’s just not that many saddle point instance types for that sort of workload. Discussing ssd vs hdd is also an obvious sign of ignorance - it’s basic premise is it does very wide highly concurrent s3 gets and scans of the data using a foundation db metadata catalog to help prune. Being in aws, it’s implausible they use hdd and realistically they could elide ssds (I do not remember if they use local disks for caching, but it’s stateless regardless).

The unit costing being hardware agnostic is totally normal too - they don’t have to expose to you the details of their costing because they normalize it to a standard fictional unit.

Re: Why is Snowflake so expensive

#193
post #7

Great article. On the surface, it's about Snowflake. At a deeper level, the article is about the perverse incentives motivating SaaS businesses to do seemingly dumb, inefficient things and avoid seemingly obvious optimizations by default. Many SaaS businesses are perfectly happy to let customers shoot themselves in the foot if it generates more revenue. The BigQuery example (presently, by default, `select * from tabl…

It's a terrible article. The author misunderstands competition and how much it drives products in this area. Snowflake is incentivized to make their product better on every dimension. If Snowflake don't improve, customers will leave in droves - like when they moved to Snowflake . In practice, as has been pointed out in other comments, they do improve their performance (for competitive reasons) and it does cost them m…

> The author misunderstands competition and how much it drives products in this area.

Snowflake compete on marketing.

Plenty of people rave about Snowflake and have never heard of Databricks, BigQuery or Redshift.

Re: Why is Snowflake so expensive

#194
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a terrible article. The author misunderstands competition and how much it drives products in this area. Snowflake is incentivized to make their product better on every dimension. If Snowflake don't improve, customers will leave in droves - like when they moved to Snowflake . In practice, as has been pointed out in other comments, they do improve their performance (for competitive reasons) and it does cost them m…

There are many degrees of optimization and clearly there's some cost to bad performance, but Snowflake still has a massive perverse incentive to not spend too much effort on improving performance. If Snowflake is like every software company I've ever been involved with there are many competing projects at any given time and direct revenue impact is a big factor in what gets prioritized. My own experience with Snowfla…

Don’t you see this with any cost based query optimizer based product?

Re: Why is Snowflake so expensive

#195

I'm the author of the article. Didn't expect it to blow up. Let me clarify a few points: 1. I like Snowflake and I think they brought several innovations to the field: Instant scale out/up, time-travel, unstructured data query support. 2. Snowflake obviously makes innovations and performance improvements, otherwise they would not be the market leader they are. But I'm also suspecting that they make just enough perfor…

Stas: "The issue is that majority of the companies don't experience a 70% revenue growth to catch up with the growth in costs"

I think you are misunderstanding something very fundamental here. Snowflake has usage pricing and no one is forcing companies to use Snowflake 70% more every year. In my experience, companies are typically evaluating spend on other platforms and after some testing, moving additional workloads there to displace cost elsewhere. Let's say your Snowflake bill was $100k and you were unhappy with your your security data lake provider and replace a $1M bill there with $200k of Snowflake. Your Snowflake bill has now increased 200% to $300k, but you are still $800k ahead overall. In other words, your existing workload (the original $100k) didn't get more expensive.

I've worked in data warehousing for a lot of years now and stepping back, I guess I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish here. I certainly think everyone should take a "trust but verify" approach with their vendors but honestly, I don't think you proven your case, especially since you appear to complete ignore the competitive reality these vendors live in. Beyond that, I don't think "speeds and feeds" are the most important improvements going on with these platforms at the moment. Check the monthly release notes:

BigQuery: https://cloud.google.com/bigquery/docs/release-notes Databricks: https://docs.databricks.com/release-notes/product/index.html Snowflake: https://docs.snowflake.com/en/release-notes.html

Performance is important but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. What percentage of features in the past two months for each of these platforms relate to performance? On the flip side, how much does your company spend on things like data governance? How much would a data breach cost? How many people maintain the platform? What do pipeline failures cost? How is connectivity to other solutions your company uses?

If you look at where innovation is happening (and this is a VERY interesting space these days), the bulk of improvements are in areas arguably more important to companies. BigQuery has added migration improvements, Databricks has added Photon and Unity Catalog improvements, Snowflake has added Java and Python stored procedures. The list is miles long for all of these vendors and I challenge anyone in the space to keep up with everything.

Another comment here said all of these vendors are within 10-20% performance of each other. If that is true, in my opinion you're focused on a problem that is an edge case at best. Something to watch, but not nearly as interesting or as impactful as the rapid pace of innovation across this space in all areas. IMHO.

Re: Why is Snowflake so expensive

#196
post #7

Great article. On the surface, it's about Snowflake. At a deeper level, the article is about the perverse incentives motivating SaaS businesses to do seemingly dumb, inefficient things and avoid seemingly obvious optimizations by default. Many SaaS businesses are perfectly happy to let customers shoot themselves in the foot if it generates more revenue. The BigQuery example (presently, by default, `select * from tabl…

One more deeper level: almost all consulting exists in a world of consultants driven to limit efficiency lest their billables decline. I know a few people who seemed to aggregate their entire personality to "hard worker" when they refused to progress.

That’s one massively vague take on the whole industry of consulting, including on-prem software, open-source solutions.

My billable hours do fine while making operations more efficient and cost less.

Re: Why is Snowflake so expensive

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly in the article suggest the author understands the pressure of competition on incentives? The author states that Snowflake are not incentivized to increase performance due to short term revenue concerns but doesn't mention they are also incentivized to do the opposite from a competitive perspective. The result is incomplete enough that it ends up being flat wrong with respect to the behavior that the comp…

> The CEO explained why they are doing it and how they are actually incentivized. The CEO explained why he thinks it's a good long term plan... but for now, they get money i.e. are actually incentivized by slow code. The CEO's incentives are theoretical ones. And the market, which ultimately control whether the CEO gets to continue that plan or not, did not seem to agree it was a good plan.

I think you’re providing a false dichotomy here. The structure may provide an opportunity to maximize short term profits but there is no reason to believe they, or any one, has to follow that opportunity especially if they rationally believe investing energy and money now has a much higher NPV.

When I read these comments about incentives to screw customers and a naked belief everyone must be, I really wonder who traumatized the authors. There are tons of excellent engineering cultures that prioritize excellence for long term gain. Find a better job.

Re: Why is Snowflake so expensive

#198
post #7

Great article. On the surface, it's about Snowflake. At a deeper level, the article is about the perverse incentives motivating SaaS businesses to do seemingly dumb, inefficient things and avoid seemingly obvious optimizations by default. Many SaaS businesses are perfectly happy to let customers shoot themselves in the foot if it generates more revenue. The BigQuery example (presently, by default, `select * from tabl…

One more deeper level: almost all consulting exists in a world of consultants driven to limit efficiency lest their billables decline. I know a few people who seemed to aggregate their entire personality to "hard worker" when they refused to progress.

It depends. Many large companies have internal “Professional Services” departments with “consultants” who are full time employees.

Standard disclaimer: I work in ProServe at AWS.

When you “consult” and are employed by the company selling the software, billable hours and utilization is not the be all end all. Consulting is just the “nose of the camel in the tent”. They want you to be as efficient as possible so they can make ongoing revenue.

Trust me, AWS is not going to complain if it only took me 20 hours to do work that was estimated for 40 and brings in half as much consulting revenue if it means ongoing revenue from the customer.

There isn’t just a singular focus on utilization rates.

Re: Why is Snowflake so expensive

#199
post #195

I'm the author of the article. Didn't expect it to blow up. Let me clarify a few points: 1. I like Snowflake and I think they brought several innovations to the field: Instant scale out/up, time-travel, unstructured data query support. 2. Snowflake obviously makes innovations and performance improvements, otherwise they would not be the market leader they are. But I'm also suspecting that they make just enough perfor…

Stas: "The issue is that majority of the companies don't experience a 70% revenue growth to catch up with the growth in costs" I think you are misunderstanding something very fundamental here. Snowflake has usage pricing and no one is forcing companies to use Snowflake 70% more every year. In my experience, companies are typically evaluating spend on other platforms and after some testing, moving additional workloads…

"In my experience, companies are typically evaluating spend on other platforms and after some testing, moving additional workloads there to displace cost elsewhere"

Fair point, some of that net revenue increase is because of consolidation of workloads, although the majority of the cost is likely still driven by consumers expanding usage beyond what they expected. As I mention in my article, the second part of increase in costs has to do with data governance, and my argument is that snowflake doesn't make governance easy. Why can't they stand up a IAM-like service with a nice UI and dashboards? why can't they make integrations with pagerduty, slack, email work out of the box? Why can't I specify team based budgets and instead have to do it on a per warehouse-team basis? Why do I have to build custom bespoke tooling on top to make governance work?

I can unequivocally say that at a certain scale you need to move on and that Snowflake and many of the SaaS providers are too expensive even at medium scale companies. This article describes this paradox better than I could: https://a16z.com/2021/05/27/cost-of-cloud-paradox-market-cap...

Moreover Snowflake's enterprise pricing model is even more non-scalable. Why do companies often have to pay two times higher price per credit relative to the standard model? Shouldn't guarantees on security or support come with a fixed cost? Shouldn't enterprise offer economies of scale in pricing?

I also wish folks would read my article from end to end because my conclusion in the article is that you don't really have a choice but to use an enterprise solution when your scale is small. If I had to start my own company and had only 2 data engineers, you betcha I would use Snowflake and DataBricks.

--- btw, it really surprises me that nobody has commented on the workload manager. Am I the only one seeing that as an issue? I have enough exposure to compare it with Redshift and I can say that Snowflake's workload manager is just very bad at optimizing throughput.

Re: Why is Snowflake so expensive

#200
post #7

Great article. On the surface, it's about Snowflake. At a deeper level, the article is about the perverse incentives motivating SaaS businesses to do seemingly dumb, inefficient things and avoid seemingly obvious optimizations by default. Many SaaS businesses are perfectly happy to let customers shoot themselves in the foot if it generates more revenue. The BigQuery example (presently, by default, `select * from tabl…

I worked at a BiqQuery shop and they have a terrific feature where right next to the “Run query” button there is an estimate of the cost of the query, in bytes. It becomes extremely obvious when a query is a full table scan.

Ha! I wonder if we worked at the same place ... it's in the travel space, because when I worked there someone wrote a plugin that did this, and it was a real eye opener at times!
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