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Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

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Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#191

Post by karamanolev »

kube-system wrote: post #89
bdangubic wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Therein lies the problem… Define “abuse it.”? If there is such a thing than PTO should be limited to that ;) Dont say it is unlimited and then say that actually is limited…

I did define it... in the rest of my comment. If the workplace culture isn't such that it is clear what abuse of the policy is, then yeah, it's not going to work out. Expectations have to be clear.

I think the best way to define what abuse is, is give explicit numbers. Even something like "25 days/year free use PTO, 20 more days to be discussed with your manager" or whatever. I came up with that policy right now, I haven't seen it anywhere, but point is - setting expectations beforehand is much better than just saying "unlimited". For some, unlimited means "20 days if you're lucky", for others it's "up to 40 days we don't bat an eye, if your output is good otherwise". "Unlimited" doesn't convey that. I want to know before I start working. Please convey it.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#192

Post by pheres »

andrewstuart wrote: post #21

I'm a developer and a recruiter. Here are some thing I know: many companies - maybe most companies - are very slow. I cannot tell you how many times I have sent a great candidate to an employer, to hear in 2 weeks that they would like to interview them, despite my pestering them the whole time for feedback. You know what they say then? "Oh well, who else have you got?". They don't care. the companies I work with who…

Please start on coding tests. I'm interested to read your opinion on that.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#193

Post by karamanolev »

rlewkov wrote: post #48
karamanolev wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some actually respect it I'm yet to see one or hear from a friend who works in one. I admit there might exist one somewhere, but by and large, they don't. Unlimited PTO = culture of overworking, at least for me. And small companies with unlimited PTO, 3-5 engineer teams (and some other staff, obviously) seem to be the worst offenders. The bigger the company, the higher the chance unlimited PTO might actually work.…

The tech company I currently work for has unlimited PTO. I've never had an issue, even once, when I said I'm going to take XYZ days off and have gotten pushback. It probably happens but I haven't seen it.

You never mention if you took 15-20-25 days per year or let's say 40. I'd say that if you're taking up to 25 days per year, then there's no point in unlimited PTO - that's such a standard number that it's better to just put it there. If you took more than 30, then I'd love to hear specific numbers. Saying that you took 30-40 days in a year and didn't get pushback means a lot more in terms of a good "unlimited PTO policy", assuming you remain otherwise very productive.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#194

Post by bradlys »

imustbeevil wrote: post #187
time_to_smile wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SV/US bubble It's not SV, it's the US. 200k is easily achievable for a senior engineer anywhere in the US with the rise in wfh. But what percent of software engineering jobs are in the US? It's not really a bubble if it's the majority of software positions. Reminds me of Dijkstra's "On the fact that the Atlantic Ocean has two sides" followed by Alan Kay's rebuttal "On the fact that most software is written on one s…

Median total compensation for a senior software engineer in the US is $138K on glassdoor, and I'd wager even that is a bit inflated. There is no reality where most engineers expect to be paid 200K+. I really don't understand technical people perpetuating this idea when you can find data pretty much anywhere that indicates otherwise. There is just no reason to inflate this number.

Glassdoor notoriously undershoots and is off by quite a bit. I’d not use that as a resource at all.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#195

Post by bradlys »

kube-system wrote: post #20
voidfunc wrote: post #9

Number one reason: You're not offering me enough good reasons to leave my current job. I don't think HR and software recruiting has really caught up to the reality that many developers by their mid-30's are sitting on a million+ in assets and good ones can rake in 200K+ easy. Further we usually find equilibrium with our roles wherever we are even if we have gripes with how things are because most devs are pragmatic p…

Don't write off a company just because they have an unlimited PTO policy. Check out the culture first, some actually respect it. Especially in smaller companies, it's sometimes just easier to judge people based on their output rather than the number of days their butt is behind a keyboard.

Correct. I’ve had unlimited PTO at a few jobs. All of them I’ve taken 5+ weeks off outside of company holidays every year. This is usually better than the 20 days standard you get from some FAANG.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#196

Post by naniwaduni »

radicaldreamer wrote: post #150
nawgz wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's literally an elite salary. It makes no sense to imply you're living a frugal, simple life if you need an elite salary to do it.

It's all relative to cost of living (including taxes) and asset prices... even in relative terms though, it is possible to save a lot in the Bay Area if you're not consuming at the high end or have your eyes set on real estate.

I mean, if you're living in an area with COL high enough to eat through $500k, you are splurging on location, which isn't really any less infrugal than it would be to splurge on travel or imported luxury goods.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#197

Post by naniwaduni »

jenscow wrote: post #159
harshalizee wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup! The interviewer can see my thought process. I can also evaluate my peers and ask questions about the work. The interviewer can also see how easy or cumbersome it is to set up the environment and code in the allotted time. Win-win.

If I was hiring a junior, perhaps that would have some use.

It's not about what's useful to you. Not everything has to be about you. It's acknowledgement that the interviewee's time is worth something (approximately about as much as dev time) and that you're willing to pay for it.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#198

Post by wink »

I suppose LinkedIn has a feature where you can mark yourself als "open to job offers", I know XING does (yes, it's still alot bigger in Germany, don't ask). If non checking that box would help, no problem.

Most of us would not have such a rational aversion to recruiters if there weren't hundreds of them spamming you with bullshit non-offers "Hey, we just saw you switched jobs this year, maybe wanna switch again before you have settled in?" (not making this up, I've had "hey, how's your 6 month probationary period [as is common] been, are you happy where you are now?"

Even writing "NO I DO NOT WANT A NEW JOB" will help avoid them pestering you. Oh, and if only this was a few (lone) people or a few bad apples in the agencies. No.

I also got contacted by recruiter B of company X while we were actively working with their colleague C to recruit people for our company. We were, until that day.

There are also a handful of them, no matter how often I politely reply "go away, I am not interested, never contact me again", after months at most they come back. The platforms make their money from the recruiters, not from the free users, so reporting them also doesn't work.

It's a bit like saying "not all MLM scheme salespeople are bad", well - 90% are.

I wish I was using hyperbole, but I am not. It's not a real problem, so don't mistake my halfhearted rant as some sort of crusade, but the reality is that after 20 years I only know a small handful of recruiters who are decent and not just opportunistic scumbags, and that sucks.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#199

Post by gsibble »

yupper32 wrote: post #178
gsibble wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What red flags did you see? That we pay top of market? That we work to have a low stress environment? That we put life before work instead of work before life? That we prioritize having the best benefits on the market, including platinum health care with $0 employee contribution and full mental health coverage for therapy and medication not covered through insurance? That we don't overload our top performers by givin…

Those are a lot of words that could be empty. It's easy for me to see the red flags: 1. Mentioning firing in the very first post when talking about hiring. 2. Take home interview tests, showing you don't value your potential employee's time. 3. And this is an interesting one: accusing someone of having a poor work ethic when you don't know them and they didn't show any sign of it. This is a big red flag because it po…

1. Hire slow, fire fast is an incredible common and accepted form of hiring (https://hbr.org/2014/03/hire-slow-fire-fast). I thought we were discussing hiring here? My post was not meant to attract employees but to share my thoughts as an employer. You sound like someone who has not done much hiring/firing.

2. If employees don't think an hour of their time is worth it to work for us, then they are clearly not a fit. Those people obviously don't value working for us. We have the easiest, fastest, most painless interview process of any company I have ever worked at, by design. We don't do whiteboard questions, we don't do 8 hour multi-person tech review days, we don't ask odd l33tcode questions or brain teasers, we don't make you wait weeks to hear back from us, we never ghost anyone, and we usually give a decision within 72 hours. Asking an hour to prove you can code seems perfectly reasonable given most companies ask for significantly more of your time. Every employer I've worked at before took up 2-5x as much time interviewing as we do. If that hour is what is preventing you from working for us, go work somewhere else as it tells me a lot about you and how much you'll value working for us.

3. I apologize for that. It was uncalled for.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#200

Post by gsibble »

sys_64738 wrote: post #175
gsibble wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're a terrible employer? Let me tell you what kind of employer we are. We pay top 1% of market. We work to have a low stress environment. We put life before work instead of work before life. We prioritize having the best benefits on the market, including platinum health care with $0 employee contribution and full mental health coverage for therapy and medication not covered through insurance. We don't overload our…

My former employer has the best benefits package is the business but it doesn't mean I'd want to work there again. Any employer is made up by the people you will work with not fringe benefits. If you are one of those people then I wouldn't want to work there. I don't care about the wallpaper. I see you went back through a lot of responses and edited them. Why is that?

We have a great group of people who all get along and are both great ICs and team members.
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