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Part of my code makes Copilot crash

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Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#191

Post by magicalist »

Mo3 wrote: post #133
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The backlash is already mounting. Is it? To me it feels like it's getting worse and worse, but that might be my bubble.

Quoted post unavailable.

You lament people becoming extreme in their views above and then go full moral panic in this post.

Maybe try to remember previous gay panics (or pick an alternate target group) that society has gone through in the past, remember what that ended up amounting to, and maybe reevaluate your media sources if you've suddenly been convinced groomers make up a large portion of the population.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#192

Post by lifthrasiir »

staticassertion wrote: post #188
lifthrasiir wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Copilot is a product for adults [...] If you didn't meant "should be" (for which I'm not willing to take any position), no, Copilot is not a product for adults [1] [2]. [1] https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/github-terms/github-t... "A User must be at least 13 years of age." [2] https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/github-terms/github-t...

A minimum age for accepting terms of use isn't the same thing as a target demographic.

No, but the minimum age requirement affects the handling of questionable contents, which can never be "doing nothing" as the GP suggested.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#193

Post by aaomidi »

politician wrote: post #123

There’s no reason to be surprised that elements within GitHub have an agenda. They’ve been clear about it since changing support for git’s master branch to main and then gaslighting the portion of community that doesn’t use the terminal about it. Now I’ve got Gen-Z developers that are confused and upset when `git init` does what it’s always done. GitHub, Microsoft ownership notwithstanding, was always going to inject…

What’s the end goal of the agenda?

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#194

Post by mcphage »

creato wrote: post #181
mcphage wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is Github worried about? That Copilot might suggest some code that checks for a "gender" variable being only one of two values? Perhaps Github is worried about a backlash if it suggests code that allows for more than 2 values.

Or the backlash if it suggests code that only allows for two values.

That's what Thorentis was suggesting in the first place. Judging by the threads here, I'd wager the backlash would be much stronger if it suggested more than 2.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#195

Post by magicalist »

nonethewiser wrote: post #185
mlyle wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why did you suggest THIS as an example of what hes talking about? He seems to be pooh-poohing the entire idea of "eliminating bias" in AI. So I felt it was important to * point out that there are clear cases of bias in AI no matter where you stand on gender * move on to explain a closely related case (using historical speech about race could be offensive) * use the lesson to show that using historical speech about…

I don't think your example is indicative of what he opposed. If you can't effectively train something from existing data then cherry picking results according to different values isnt going to fix it. Your example has quietly shifted from facial recognition of different races to speech about different races. I cant even be sure of what you're talking about other than the fact that you will oppose criticism of imparti…

> If you can't effectively train something from existing data then cherry picking results according to different values isnt going to fix it.

Given the variance in the utility of copilot's suggestions, this doesn't seem true on it's face. Define "effectively" here and I think cherry picking would definitely fall within its range.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#196

Post by slater »

aaomidi wrote: post #193
politician wrote: post #123

There’s no reason to be surprised that elements within GitHub have an agenda. They’ve been clear about it since changing support for git’s master branch to main and then gaslighting the portion of community that doesn’t use the terminal about it. Now I’ve got Gen-Z developers that are confused and upset when `git init` does what it’s always done. GitHub, Microsoft ownership notwithstanding, was always going to inject…

What’s the end goal of the agenda?

A more inclusive verbiage, which is clearly a terrible and slippery-slope thing.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#197

Post by Mo3 »

magicalist wrote: post #191
Mo3 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You lament people becoming extreme in their views above and then go full moral panic in this post. Maybe try to remember previous gay panics (or pick an alternate target group) that society has gone through in the past, remember what that ended up amounting to, and maybe reevaluate your media sources if you've suddenly been convinced groomers make up a large portion of the population.

Sorry, but this is not comparable to anything seen before. I can't remember 6 year olds taking hormones and 16 year olds having their breasts removed. There was no 4000% increase in teenagers claiming to be gay. There were no attempts to change core language concepts and there were no gays attacking and discriminating against other gays. I also can't remember scientists and medical professionals being gaslighted and having their careers destroyed for having valid concerns, companies having to conform to fluidly changing and unregulated redefinitions of language or facing massive targeted and politically motivated attacks, whatever, you name it..

I realize this is at most 5-10% of some age groups, but they are louder than anyone else and acting in a radical fashion. On the other hand I'm not sure where you see moral panic here, I'm really just expressing knowledge and my opinion. Not very emotionally so. Even if I could be slightly more emotional about it, I have literally been attacked for stating that I am bisexual and don't have neopronouns. That hasn't happened in a long time. Not to mention the damage that is being done right now to decades of fighting for acceptance and the past "gay panics". Kind of ironic to mention that in the context of new active discrimination by their own and then calling it moral panic.

Past gay panics furthered the cause. This behavior will set it back by 20 years. Even completely indifferent or transgender-friendly people are starting to turn on them now.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#198

Post by mlyle »

lmm wrote: post #190
mlyle wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, I don't think, e.g. being able to handle black faces correctly is some sort of massive ideological commitment. So let's not pretend that the entire concern of bias in AI is irrelevant, no matter where you stand on gender. > conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments You know-- let's just talk about basic respect and dignity: if someone strongly wants to…

Quoted post unavailable.

> Removing your face-recognition function because it's less effective on black faces is certainly a substantial ideological commitment.

Deploying your face-recognition function for something critical that impacts user quality of life, even if it doesn't recognize black faces well, is an ideological commitment by default.

> That's not generally true.

It's absolutely generally true. We generally call people by the name they request; if they don't like us referring to their race or features in a certain way, we stop.

> We don't give noble or professional titles

Are you suggesting that having a naturally born penis is some kind of equivalent signifier to being a P.Eng?

> focused on the feelings of some very small groups

I think you are underestimating how big of a change is afoot in the 13-25 demographic.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#199

Post by staticassertion »

lifthrasiir wrote: post #192
staticassertion wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A minimum age for accepting terms of use isn't the same thing as a target demographic.

No, but the minimum age requirement affects the handling of questionable contents, which can never be "doing nothing" as the GP suggested.

Fair point.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#200

Post by alasdair_ »

onionisafruit wrote: post #146
fny wrote: post #122

So I've just tested it, and I can confirm, yes, copilot refuses to give suggestions related to gender. Now I know a lot of people are calling this absurd, but looking more closely, there are two PR nightmare scenarios. 1. Copilot makes a suggestion that implies gender is binary, a certain community explodes with anger and an entire news hype cycle starts about how Microsoft is enforcing views on gender with code. 2.…

Those aren’t the only options. You can just let it suggest what it is going to suggest. Copilot is a product for adults who should be able to comprehend what machine learning is. Anybody who throws a fit about it will only be exposing themselves as a fool.

The problem is that if you train an ML model with a bunch of data that happened to be available in the past, then the system will perpetuate the same biases as were inherent in the training data. This leads to the (real issue) Google image classifier categorizing an image of a black man as a "gorilla" etc.

Certain words are heavily loaded and are worth just skipping to avoid all the hassle for now.

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