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Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

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Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#191

Post by xhkkffbf »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #14
noisy_boy wrote: post #5

> The ALU may ask you to sign an authorization card or share a QR code to fill out an online authorization card. > This is a legally binding document Ooh scary ... is the employment contract signed by Amazon's employees not legally binding? How is it Amazon's business what their grown-ass employees can or cannot sign? > By signing a card or filling out an online authorization form, you are providing the ALU your pers…

obviously amazon doesn't have a real case against unions, but they can try to use scary language to confuse people

No post body was provided.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#192

Post by pastacacioepepe »

thepasswordis wrote: post #159
pastacacioepepe wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions can be corrupted or do mistakes, and sometimes unions are not powerful enough in the face of global market shifts. That doesn't mean unions are bad or useless. It would be like saying that since democratic governments can be corrupted, we should do without democracy.

Hold on just to be clear: do you think the problem in Detroit is that the unions weren't powerful enough ?

To be clear, just read again. I don't claim to be an expert about Detroit's union history by the way.

> Unions can be corrupted or do mistakes

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#193

Post by pastacacioepepe »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #154
pastacacioepepe wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions can be corrupted or do mistakes, and sometimes unions are not powerful enough in the face of global market shifts. That doesn't mean unions are bad or useless. It would be like saying that since democratic governments can be corrupted, we should do without democracy.

That analogy is poor because we don’t know of a good alternative to democratic governments. But there is an obvious alternative to unions that many workers do prefer.

And they can still choose it, since unions are not compulsory as far as I know? So what are we discussing about?

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#194

Post by makomk »

denton-scratch wrote: post #117
GuB-42 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, that means less for the executives and shareholders. They may have to sell some of their properties, oh dear. Is it what usually happens when workers unionize? It seems like most of the times, the result is a higher price for the customer, at least when things go well.

> It seems like most of the times, the result is a higher price for the customer, at least when things go well. Sure. So the customer buys less product, the company makes less profit, and the shareholders eject the executives. But there are huge delays in these chains of causation, which provide opportunities for arbitrage.

The trouble with that argument is that you haven't justified why it should only cause downward pressure on prices when companies have to increase pay due to unions demanding more cash. The exact same process should drive down prices and the amount executives make all the time, which means that the price will already be near the optimum given a particular level of costs and that increasing the costs will increase that optimum price. (This is particularly clear in scenarios where this works so well at pushing prices down that the increased wage demands would lead to losing money on every unit sold at the original price. Obviously in this scenario the price must increase.)

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#195

Post by xhkkffbf »

photochemsyn wrote: post #10

Realistically an Amazon-wide union is the only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China, without having any cross-border capital flow penalities (neoliberal globalism in a nutshell), then the major employers like Amazon and Walmart are going to have to double their w…

Why do you think it means less for executives? It could be that they pass the costs on to consumers. So everything at Amazon will be more expensive just to pay the premium.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#196

Post by whimsicalism »

dcolkitt wrote: post #101
photochemsyn wrote: post #10

Realistically an Amazon-wide union is the only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China, without having any cross-border capital flow penalities (neoliberal globalism in a nutshell), then the major employers like Amazon and Walmart are going to have to double their w…

> If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China What? You think overseas manufacturers are paying $30 an hour? It wasn't high-skilled manufacturing that was outsourced. Welders and machinists still have near zero unemployment and make about as much as a software engineer. It was low skilled manufacturing jobs that were outsourced…

High-skilled manufacturing was absolutely outsourced outside of the US.

> Those jobs never paid anywhere close to $30/hour even in the heyday of unionized American manufacturing.

Auto factory jobs (which were outsourced) certainly paid that much and more in inflation adjusted dollars. From a book studying the auto industry describing average wages in Detroit,

> At $11.62 an hour in 1982 wages, Detroit's autoworkers, according to U.S. car companies, were simply too expensive, particularly with the added cost of pensions, health insurance, and union-negotiated work rules.

This is already over $30/hr in 2022 dollars.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#197

Post by fatbird »

whimsicalism wrote: post #187
fatbird wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If ALU gets over 50% of employees to sign the card, they can bypass a vote and declare themselves the union and petition for recognition of such to the NLRB (which will grant it unless Amazon can demonstrate malfeasance somehow). It’s a common tactic by unions and a common response by employers is to carefully but thoroughly explain this tactic to employees—-which they’re allowed to do, but it’s totally illegal to sa…

Yeah, if they can get 50% of employees on legal record saying they support the union, it is obvious that they don't need an election. Your language, IMO, is value-laden. Card-signing is a common "tactic" for unions like the presidential election is a "tactic" for deciding the next president.

I am 100% behind Amazon employees unionizing, and I wish unionization was far more widespread. I wasn’t trying to impugn unions using the legitimate process to achieve legitimate ends.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#198

Post by [deleted] »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #156
0n0n0m0uz wrote: post #109

People nowadays have no memory of the decades of struggle, sacrifice to win the rights we currently have. Unions are the most effective tool the working class has to affect change where they spend a majority of their waking life. No wonder why its demonized at every possible instance.

I do think unions had some (modest) benefit but the role of raw economic growth in improving worker rights is often understated.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#199

Post by whimsicalism »

xhkkffbf wrote: post #195
photochemsyn wrote: post #10

Realistically an Amazon-wide union is the only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China, without having any cross-border capital flow penalities (neoliberal globalism in a nutshell), then the major employers like Amazon and Walmart are going to have to double their w…

Why do you think it means less for executives? It could be that they pass the costs on to consumers. So everything at Amazon will be more expensive just to pay the premium.

This effect would only really exist for monopolies.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#200

Post by mightyham »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #149
smugma wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has significantly increased wages. They were at the forefront of the $15 wage, more than double the federal minimum wage. I think at the time Walmart was at $10 or $11. I live in very liberal SF but outside of my bubble, I hear people complain that it’s not possible to hire Nannies/housecleaners/employees anymore when Amazon and Starbucks pay $18/hr. Seems like the answer is easy: pay them more or make the job…

You’re saying conflicting things, Amazon “leads raising wages” to you but then “it’s not possible to hire X at rate Y so people have to pay more.” Amazon has to pay more because their jobs are shit. They aren’t doing anything to raise wages they’re just trying to get people’s asses in the door. I’m sort of shocked you linked to the department of labor’s historical page as some sort of proof of your idea. I can guaran…

>their jobs are shit I have a couple friends that have worked at Amazon warehouses and also worked at shipping centers for UPS and FedEx and they both told me that Amazon not only paid better but had better working conditions. Not saying that's the case universally, but I don't think it's right to uniquely criticize Amazon and not the industry at large, especially if Amazon really is a better employer than their competition.
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