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Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

spiegel.de

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Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#191

Post by nimish »

bakuninsbart wrote: post #121
yrgulation wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, most europe and the us told germany it relies too much on a single source of energy. Schroeder, Merkel, both were in bed with russia’s oil and gas tsars. Nord Stream’s ceo is a former stasi officer, ursula is corrupt and many many alternative pipelines have been pushed back in favour of we know who. Please dont mix everyone else in. As you can see some german commenters even admit to germany wanting to push for e…

Who in Europe isn't heavily affected by the gas shortage? How is this Germany's fault? To me it seems like a lot of the smaller/weaker countries in Europe just always need a scapegoat to blame when things get difficult.

We can trace the dependency on gas to Germany's ill advised policy to go all in on coal & gas after shutting down nuclear.

Other countries now have an enormous economy entering the market, driving up prices and effectively controlled by Russia, as Russia supplies most of the gas. Russia and most eastern european countries have a poor relationship.

Now money is expensive and there's no time to build alternatives. And Russia knows this.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#192

Post by missedthecue »

shafyy wrote: post #16
hash07e wrote: post #5

Errr... How about turn on those Nuclear plants?

Natural gas cannot be replaced by nuclear energy (or any other source of electricity) for many applications, at least not in the short term. For example here in Germany, many homes use gas boilers (heaters) for heating space and water. You would need to rebuild a lot of infrastructure to use electricity (which Germany plans to do, but obviously this will take years if not decades).

Yes, as I've said before, the problem for Germany and Europe more broadly is that nuclear reactors do not create natural gas.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#193

Post by danans »

nisa wrote: post #18

To get some perspective why this is such a hotly debated topic - just got my heating bill for the last year - just a small 2 person flat in a small town - most flats in Germany are heated by gas one way or another - 700€/year with 5.2ct/kWh for 2021 - current market is more like 15ct/kWh and will probably rise. With the rise in rent prices in the last years this could push quite a bit of poor / lower middle class peo…

> Still me and all of my friends are still fine with this. There is no alternative anyway

There is an alternative: heat pumps. The problem is the upfront cost, which needs to be lowered through economies of scale.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#194

Post by OOD »

grapeskin wrote: post #90
olivermarks wrote: post #33

https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovation/small-modular-reactor... I'm on the fence about an all electric future- we simply don't have the grid capacity in most parts of the world - but the Germans and French who control the EU should have been developing SMNR years ago. They are now in an energy checkmate situation with a hostile country with an economy the size of Italy. Not clever,

> They are now in an energy checkmate situation with a hostile country with an economy the size of Italy. I think looking at national threats by their GDP is kind of weird. Afghanistan led to the downfall of the USSR but had basically nothing going for it economically. The US also blew decades of effort and money. ISIS plowed through its region with sheer mongol-like savagery and managed to wreak havoc in major weste…

>America went basically all out trying to stop Vietnam, then one of the poorest countries on earth, and got nowhere.

This is ahistorical. The US in no way, shape, or form when "all out" trying to stop North Vietnam. It was a poor country, but it was heavily armed and resupplied by the USSR and China, including leveraging some of the newest fighter jets, SAMs, etc. the USSR had to offer.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#195

Post by SoftTalker »

dathinab wrote: post #86
MichaelRazum wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the EU nuclear power is green. So solution #2 would save the climate, based on that logic. Actually inflation was already there before the war, so it is mostly because of #3.

Nuclear is climate friendly!! Just not environment friendly. Especially for "longer living" species like humans. I don't understand why its supper common for people not understand that climate and environmental friendly often overlap but are not always the same and sometimes in direct conflict. For climate protection nuclear power is currently probably the best choice we have (globally). But for environmental protect…

Even incuding Chernobyl, Fukushima, and other nuclear disasters, pollution from coal has taken far more life-years from humans than nuclear energy. Our record with nuclear is not perfect. The technology is not forgiving of mistakes. But we learn from every failure and adapt. It's like passenger air transport in that way.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#196

Post by Scarblac »

klpons wrote: post #184
nisa wrote: post #18

To get some perspective why this is such a hotly debated topic - just got my heating bill for the last year - just a small 2 person flat in a small town - most flats in Germany are heated by gas one way or another - 700€/year with 5.2ct/kWh for 2021 - current market is more like 15ct/kWh and will probably rise. With the rise in rent prices in the last years this could push quite a bit of poor / lower middle class peo…

There is an obvious alternative: The West must stop doubling down every 2 months and seek a diplomatic solution. The U.S is relatively fine. Europe is being screwed over by the virtue-signaling policies. Europe canceled cheap long term Gazprom contracts and is now buying expensive gas (including from Russia!) on the spot market. Europe buys expensive liquid gas form the U.S. Meanwhile, China is laughing and buys chea…

If Europe gives in now, then it is certain that it _won't_ stop there. It would mean Russia can do whatever it wants, and will.

It's war. We have to win it. Yes that is expensive, but Russia commits genocide in the areas they occupy, so there is no alternative.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#197

Post by jamesrr39 »

1234letshaveatw wrote: post #124
Gravityloss wrote: post #23

Unfortunately Brunsbüttel terminal only finally got the go ahead in January 2022 and it will take 3.5 years to build. It's anyway a good alternative source. https://www.gem.wiki/Brunsb%C3%BCttel_LNG_Terminal Increasing insulation and installing and building more heat pumps are obvious ways to save on gas. Italy used some big EU subsidies to pay 100% of people's home and house renovations. Would something like that be…

my god- the EU redistributed tax revenue from member countries to fund 100% of home improvements in Italy? I can't even imagine.

You don't have to imagine, it is commonplace around the world. Lots of tax revenue from countries all around the world is distributed to different areas of the country/world (obvious e.g. foreign aid). If the amount of tax isn't excessive, allows everyone to have a good standard of living, and is resulting in something positive, why not?

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#198

Post by mythrwy »

excieve wrote: post #148
nisa wrote: post #18

To get some perspective why this is such a hotly debated topic - just got my heating bill for the last year - just a small 2 person flat in a small town - most flats in Germany are heated by gas one way or another - 700€/year with 5.2ct/kWh for 2021 - current market is more like 15ct/kWh and will probably rise. With the rise in rent prices in the last years this could push quite a bit of poor / lower middle class peo…

As a Ukrainian, I sincerely thank you for writing this. It is often disheartening to see how many people of HN don't realise what is happening (and, frankly, has been happening for 8 years) and then read cold opinions devoid of empathy. What is the compromise when the other side's goal is extermination?

I don't see the goal being extermination at all. If that were the case the tactics used would be much different.

Control, integration, subjugation, colonization, there are a lot of other words that are more fitting without the "genocide" hyperbole.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#199

Post by bonzini »

wsc981 wrote: post #111
akmarinov wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solution #1 - we already tried that, we gave Putin Crimea in 2014, everything was chill for 7-8 years and now we have this mess. If we give him Donetsk and Luhansk, he'll just be back for more + Moldova in 5-6 years.

Quoted post unavailable.

And Russia had poisoned a West-friendly candidate even before and generally meddled with Ukrainian elections. Let's not make this look like it was started by Ukraine...

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#200

Post by atlasunshrugged »

cpursley wrote: post #176
kennywinker wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP but i suspect they’re ok with it because the other option is giving in to an authoritarian regime that is intent on expansion. I.e. war on their doorstep. The realpolitik is speeding up the transition off oil and gas, and energy independence.

Yes, but the sanctions are obviously backfiring on Europeans and not hurting the Russians by any objective measure. I agree on the transition, but where are the bids, construction, etc for new LNG terminals and other replacements? All I see is "Putin bad" talk and no action on what's actually required. But hey, at least no more Russian athletes and violinists!

Europe announced a REPower initiative to speed up investments in alternatives; the problem that they have is that no one wants to build more LNG infrastructure because that's a 20+yr commitment to gas that has some environmental impact and want to go full renewable but this is quite slow to do (and of course is hugely dependent on China which controls the processed critical mineral market). Also, German environmentalists especially do not want to build nuclear facilities, so the options for the government to respond with are limited.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_22_...

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