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Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

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Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#191
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From finnish point of view, those seem small. In finnish, the term is ”kaukolämpö”, literally ”far heat”. You dont heat a ”district”, you heat the entire city. I mean, electricity wires go everywhere, why not heating pipes. And so the network for Helsinki looks like this: https://twitter.com/energiahelen/status/1511998227008176129?... The red lines is the heat pipe network, it covers the entire city. When Americans t…

More people live in New York than in the whole of Finland.

Which only makes more sense for the New York to be heated by a network of pipes.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#192
post #8

As an American it completely breaks my expectations that district heating not only works can be more efficient that decentralized heating. The amount of heat lost just moving water from the water heater on one side of the house to the shower on the other is ridiculously high in houses here. The idea that you can insulate well enough to efficiently move heat across a city is amazing to me.

Well there is district steam in New York. Another thing may be density: you will lose less heat due to distance travelled for central parts of New York than for a less dense(?) European city which is itself much much denser than a typical American suburb-city

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Houses last 100 years? They can, but typically after 20 years it starts to make economic sense to scoop the remains of the house into a dump truck and build a fancier house on the now much more expensive land under it. In my neighborhood (admittedly, originally built in the 50s) every single sale I can remember from the last 15 years has resulted it a complete teardown and rebuild bigger. And one of those rebuilds re…

20 years!? That's absurd. It never makes economic sense to tear down a house if you're paying for it (above the land value). It depends on building codes in your area and such but my house is nearly 40 and it's not even close to end of life. Hell, the house I grew up in is still there and it's gotta be approaching 80.

> It never makes economic sense to tear down a house if you're paying for it (above the land value).

The land value is the key. Often, houses in the 50s-80s were built in what was suburbs or actual small villages back then, with enormous land surrounding them because land was cheap. Nowadays, the urban areas have grown and grown, and with them the desire for space for people to live on - even here in Europe, in Munich for example, land values exploded over the last 20-30 years. Think of like the land price not only doubling or tripling, but increasing tenfold or more since the houses were built.

Say you have land with a house that was worth 50.000 $ when it was constructed... and now, the land alone can be worth millions. So you tear down the existing house that's in the middle of the plot, build four new houses on it, each one bigger than the old one, and sell three of the four houses to pay for your new home and a nice chunk of cash. Or you rent the houses out for absurd amounts of money and never have to work a day in your life again.

And that happens not just with houses 50 years or older. Here in Munich, I've seen this happen with houses younger than me, simply because land values went up so immensely.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#194

I've proposed several times on HN a "box of rocks" at the house level to store heat/cold when electricity is cheap, and release heat/cold when electricity is expensive. It was ridiculed every time. I should have patented it :-)

Don't listen to other people.

I never have :-) Sometimes to my detriment, but most of the time it works out in my favor.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#195
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. True, my sister's family lives in a house with centralized heating and they pay 3-4 times more (!) per month compared to our home which simply uses an on-demand heater.

That sounds like some terrible bureaucracy coupled with some hybrid privatisation. I would be livid if my politicians allowed some company to profit off their de facto monopoly on a central heating grid.

The story of an efficient centralized system costing more than an inefficient decentralized one replays itself throughout the lives of Germans, resulting in impoverishment of the average German.

Germany is a very rich country with the poorest people in Europe. Germany has a huge amount of political and corruption problems and they are covered up well. You will be shocked by the tax rate too if you tried to earn an income. Median German households are the poorest in all of Europe. Don't just take my word for it either.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#197

I've proposed several times on HN a "box of rocks" at the house level to store heat/cold when electricity is cheap, and release heat/cold when electricity is expensive. It was ridiculed every time. I should have patented it :-)

Well, those old storage heaters were pretty much that. And they went away for a reason

Doesn't mean the idea can't be implemented better, of course.

In fact I do think there's a lot of low-hanging fruit that remains to be explored in energy production.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not sound right. You can regulate district heating when it enters your house.

I have seen this several times in 1950s/1960s eastern bloc apartments. I was only visiting, so I don't know if it was the original design, or if the valves have jammed.

This was standard in the Sowjet Union. If you think it’s too warm, you open the window.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#199
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From finnish point of view, those seem small. In finnish, the term is ”kaukolämpö”, literally ”far heat”. You dont heat a ”district”, you heat the entire city. I mean, electricity wires go everywhere, why not heating pipes. And so the network for Helsinki looks like this: https://twitter.com/energiahelen/status/1511998227008176129?... The red lines is the heat pipe network, it covers the entire city. When Americans t…

More people live in New York than in the whole of Finland.

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