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The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

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Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#191

Post by cmrdporcupine »

bogomipz wrote: post #190
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, an IC @ Google outside the US still makes 2-3x what their local employment market will pay even without playing all careerist & promo games. Source: was IC @ Google. Frankly I've accumulated the cynical opinion that Google wants to asphyxiate the local job markets of talent. They need to do this to keep their lead in advertising, etc., and they can afford to do it because of their lead. Paying 2x what local…

Out of curiosity, was this Zurich? I'd be curious to hear why you left.

Waterloo

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#192

Post by Kranar »

FredPret wrote: post #82
Dove wrote: post #66

I found this fascinatingly counterintuitive. I would normally expect that a broader market leads to lower prices for commodity goods. If I can only buy candy from the vendor at the movie theater, I expect to pay a higher price than if I can buy it from all the stores in the region, which I expect to be higher again than if I can import it from anywhere in the world. The reverse is true for developers? The companies w…

By this logic, the best deal for a good developer will almost always be to start a company

No, by that logic the worst deal for a good developer is to start a company. You can ignore that logic and find other types of reasoning for why starting a company is a good thing, but OPs entire point is that a good developer is only valuable within a large organization due to scale. If a good developer starts their own company then their scale is effectively zero, meaning the value of their skillset with respect to their own company is next to nothing.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#193

Post by FredPret »

Kranar wrote: post #192
FredPret wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this logic, the best deal for a good developer will almost always be to start a company

No, by that logic the worst deal for a good developer is to start a company. You can ignore that logic and find other types of reasoning for why starting a company is a good thing, but OPs entire point is that a good developer is only valuable within a large organization due to scale. If a good developer starts their own company then their scale is effectively zero, meaning the value of their skillset with respect to…

You can provide a service - as a company - to a large corporation and get paid for the scale though. An employee solves the problem at scale and gets a fraction of the value

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#194

Post by nayuki »

splittingTimes wrote: post #158

Humanities supposedly most brilliant minds work on the next e-billing system, AI on how to sell more crap that nobody really needs, keep a glorified message board afloat or enable the cancer that is advertisment. They should work on how to address the climate catastrophe, the waste/recycling problem, food security, sustainable agriculture and land/water use, medical devices/health care or how to fix the broken partic…

You can build an advertisement tracking system unilaterally and release it to the world. You don't need permission to do so.

On the other hand, fixing the climate, recycling, agriculture, the political, system, etc. require you to convince other people to change their beliefs and habits. You also might need to raise prices on things they hold dear (e.g. carbon tax) or tell them to stop doing something they find convenient. These are hard problems.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#195

Post by ipaddr »

fnbr wrote: post #136
de6u99er wrote: post #126

Those high salaries remind me of the stories of heavy smokers who didn't die of cancer or COPD. I think it's very unlikely to get those high salaries in Europe. Comparing them to salaries in Silicon Valley without context isn't really smart. I have always tried to see bay area salaries as as risk compensation. E g. In Vienna/Austria a 2-3 bedroom apartment here is about 1-2k while in the bay area it's between 5-10k.…

Wait, really? That’s incredible! €1-2k for a 2-3 bedroom apartment in Vienna? You would barely see that anywhere in Canada, let alone a major city.

You can find that in most cities. 2,700 Canadian can rent a house in Toronto if you leave the downtown area.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#196

Post by Taniwha »

Lazare wrote: post #185

Slightly different reasons, but I'm seeing something similar in New Zealand. Domestic companies benchmark against each other, and pay lower salaries. Meanwhile Australian companies have mostly come to terms with remote work after the lockdowns, which makes NZ as a valuable recruitment market. (If an engineer can be productive a 30m drive from their Sydney office, they can probably be productive a 3h flight too, espec…

I moved home to NZ from an OE in Silicon Valley 20 years ago .... but kept my US job (and moved to others) - living in NZ it's a great deal, but local salaries make it virtually impossible to take a local job and keep my current standard of living.

I work remotely, consult so I pay tax here (lower marginal rates than the US - plus you should pay tax where you live), but suffer when the exchange rate goes against me (damn those Japanese dentists!)

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#197

Post by discordance »

ceeplusplus wrote: post #155
BossingAround wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no real reason why public transport must be necessarily profitable. It's a common good that tax payers enjoy. You'll have profitable legs, but you'll also have legs that are used by a few folks from a village who need to get to the city once a week, and those will never be profitable. A private company would probably not build there.

Because without the need to be profitable, you get gross incompetence, corruption, and waste. See: California HSR, BART expansion, NYC subway expansion. The power of the market forces private businesses to offer quality service. A privately run subway would never allow drug addicts and thieves run rampant on the train like they're allowed to in NYC and the Bay. Pro tip: if I feel scared for my life or property at any…

Per mile, cars are by far the most life threatening form of transportation.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#198

Post by bogomipz »

lnsru wrote: post #145
fnbr wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, really? That’s incredible! €1-2k for a 2-3 bedroom apartment in Vienna? You would barely see that anywhere in Canada, let alone a major city.

The same is valid for Munich. 2-3 bedrooms plus dining room is <2k here. However it’s not the best apartment in the city, rather okayish. Also it’s hard to hit 5k after taxes salary limit here.

Wow. Out of curiosity is Berlin the same price as or more expensive than Munich now?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#199

Post by samatman »

nerdponx wrote: post #12
seibelj wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A common criticism is that “but you get so much more for your taxes in Europe”. I have a counterpoint - you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. I’d rather keep more of my take-home pay and do without certain services, or better yet choose the provider (and quality / expense) of such services if I want them. Somehow the bureaucracy in the US is still massive, so I can only imagine what far higher tax rat…

The biggest US government expenses are the military and overcomplicated inefficient social programs (Medicare, food stamps, Social Security). Moreover, the logical extreme of this argument is to just not have a government at all. I don't need bridges because I don't drive. I don't need the fire department because I am careful. Etc. It doesn't make sense, and the truth is that some things either best administered cent…

The logical extreme of your argument is communism.

I'm not even slightly accusing you of advocating communism, but rather, pointing out that the logical extreme is irrelevant.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#200

Post by faangguyindia »

Dove wrote: post #66

I found this fascinatingly counterintuitive. I would normally expect that a broader market leads to lower prices for commodity goods. If I can only buy candy from the vendor at the movie theater, I expect to pay a higher price than if I can buy it from all the stores in the region, which I expect to be higher again than if I can import it from anywhere in the world. The reverse is true for developers? The companies w…

I'd like to point out that FAANG high salary in US is cost of engaging brilliant minds who otherwise might work on competing products.

For example, FAANG in India pays 10x local salary of an average dev in India. A guy with skills who who makes 5x-10x local salary in India will not be available on freelance market simply because he neither is going to paid well for the time spent there vs social recognition for the efforts he gets working for better companies.

In Europe, it's much difficult to start a company and people aren't of typical mindset to jump start a company into global dominance.

This isn't the case in US, here any guy with a garage shop thinks he can spin a dominant business only targetting US market.

And how many people in US complete their college etc? So the competition among skilled people isn't intense as its in US.

You do not even need a collage degree to make good money in US but in Europe or India you absolutely need.

So there's less noise in employment market for developer in US and funding is easily available to quick start competition.

Most companies believe their most likely competitor will be from hot tech hubs in US (and history tells you same)

In US, it's like a guy who is on trajectory to build spaceship is being paid high to cut grass for Google, so that he can be distracted during his prime.

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