Laundry symbols make no sense • Hacker News Board

Re: Laundry symbols make no sense

#191

Post by robonerd » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 7:00 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #128

jrochkind1 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting! I don't believe that's how USA washing machines work, they usually just say "hot", "warm", and "cold". Apparently USAians are washing machine philistines who don't need more than three temperatures and don't know what they are? Anyway, this shows another challenge in these icons, the international diversity of washing techniques and technology. (Edit: I found one possible answer online -- Euro washing ma…

> I found one possible answer online -- Euro washing machines may actually have water heaters built in, while American washing macchines may just use the existing house "hot water supply". So Euro machines can heat to desired temp, while American ones just have to take what they get! Ah so it’s the same deal as the dishwashers, I should have figured. > Euro houses don't usually have a central "hot water tank" like US…

> the US being on 120V

Driers, and similar high power appliances, don't use a single 120V phase. They use two phrases, 180 degrees apart in normal residential houses and 120 degrees apart in apartment buildings. Any American clothing dryer I've ever seen has 240V (slightly less in apartment buildings.)

Re: Laundry symbols make no sense

#192

Post by iforgotpassword » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 7:01 PM UTC

readthenotes1 wrote: post #170

Flimm wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would highly recommend reading some UX classics such as: - The Inmate Are Running The Asylum by Alan Cooper - The Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman (and I'm sure there are many more good resources that are recent than that.) It's very easy as tech-savvy people like us to underestimate how hard technology, even conventions like laundry symbols, are. I personally have printed out a legend explaining the laun…

They aren't well-known, at least according to the article. I myself recognize that I've seen a few of them, but since they are as cryptic as Egyptian hieroglyphs to me, I ignore them.

They aren't well known, but they're an international standard. Getting everyone to switch to a new system will take a huge effort. As others said above, there are just so many symbols that I dare to claim it is impossible to come up with a symbol set that is self explanatory, or easy to memorize. As soon as you're in doubt about any symbol, you'd have to look it up, and then it doesn't matter whether you need to look up one or three.

I only know the one for temperature, the "no dryer" one, "wash by hand" and "no spin-dry". But like you, I don't give a shit. I wash everything at 60 (underwear, bed sheets, towels) or 40 (everything else) °C with spin-dry at 1400rpm.[*] Some pieces might wear faster, but so be it. I guess the vast majority of people does it that way.

[*] Ok ok, except wool or cashmere, or a suit. But this is something I just learned from my mom at young age, not by researching any symbols.

Re: Laundry symbols make no sense

#193

Post by mikestew » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 7:01 PM UTC

vidanay wrote: post #116

mikestew wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can’t speak to your tolerance for chlorine gas, but… Or were you saying that the bleach bottles on your shelf state that one should not mix bleach with acids such as vinegar? I’d actually have to go look at mine, but I don’t recall a mention. So I looked: the warning is in the middle of a wall of text, with print so small only pedantic geeks with good, young eyes are going to bother. Let alone be able to read…

I was referring to the statement that the bottles don't contain a warning, not about the chemical reaction that obviously exists. It probably doesn't specify vinegar, but a general "do not mix with other cleaners". If it only said vinegar, then someone would mix it with ammonia and when they died, they'd claim "it only said vinegar!"

It probably doesn't specify vinegar, but a general "do not mix with other cleaners"

Without going back and straining my eyes, I don't think it even goes that far. Just do not mix with acids, and it specifically called out "urine and feces", from which I guess we're supposed to surmise that it is not a toilet cleaner? It's a difficult problem, yes, because "but it didn't say not to..."

But again, I'm pretty sure the solution does not lie in a wall of 6 pt. text., regardless of what it needs to say.

Re: Laundry symbols make no sense

#194

Post by 0xffff2 » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 7:03 PM UTC

corrral wrote: post #150

b112 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really find the idea that "having to know, or lookup stuff", as a problem, offensive. Laundry is literally filled with things to know, outside of these symbols. Household tasks are. I don't see labels on bleech bottles, saying not to mix it with vinegar or you could die. Yet people have done that in the wash, so why not start there? Here's what each sane person should do, who actually takes time to look at tags. (a…

Are people seeing some huge benefits from paying attention to these symbols? I've been, as the kids say, "adulting" for some time, and pay no attention to them. I couldn't draw a single one from memory. If you showed me one, I'd only be able to guess at the meaning. All I do is not wash stuff that says "dry clean only" (it always just says it in text, I have no idea if there even is a symbol for that) and favor coole…

Yeah, I can summarize my laundry habits as follows:

- Dry clean formal clothes

- Air dry wool

- If I'm going through a raw denim phase, keep it out of the regular laundry

- Everything else goes in the washer set on permanent press and then in the dryer at medium heat

Never in 17 years of doing my own laundry has this system failed me in any way.

Re: Laundry symbols make no sense

#195

Post by trynewideas » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 7:05 PM UTC

the optimism of consistently printing (or stitching!) symbols with this level of detail across fabric types, from printed tags to printed on-fabric to stitched tags, that will also remain readable after frequent wear and cleaning

ignoring the existing multiplicity of existing standards (ISO vs. ASTM vs. GINETEX vs. Japan vs. OTEXA/CGSB/Canada) to propose another one, especially when many of the changes he makes were at one point implemented in a non-English-speaking nation for decades[1] and then abandoned for the international standard that he doesn't like

redesigning all future clothing to use a new standard that can be confused or conflict with existing standards that will remain in use for decades because no older non-compliant clothing will be immediately destroyed, much less all

missing more actionable user-focused solutions that don't require a new standard, such as adding standardized, well-designed, localized symbol keys on points of interaction, like laundry supplies and equipment

all leading to a point not of action but to "bring more awareness to the cost" of something the author and his immediate audience personally does not understand, but which is not necessarily broadly misunderstood

and for that matter is only believed by the author to be broadly misunderstood because of an out-of-context, entertaining blog post[2] where, for mildly career-connected fun and LinkedIn social engagement, the researcher texted her mom and some personal friends and came to a half-joking conclusion appropriate to the post's mostly unserious tone ("I am predictably going to advocate more user research on the matter") that's neither mentioned nor applied by the author

[1] https://www.sbs-zipper.com/blog/japan-implements-new-clothin...

[2] https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/speed-user-research-question-...

Re: Laundry symbols make no sense

#196

Post by 0xffff2 » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 7:08 PM UTC

iratewizard wrote: post #98

b112 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really find the idea that "having to know, or lookup stuff", as a problem, offensive. Laundry is literally filled with things to know, outside of these symbols. Household tasks are. I don't see labels on bleech bottles, saying not to mix it with vinegar or you could die. Yet people have done that in the wash, so why not start there? Here's what each sane person should do, who actually takes time to look at tags. (a…

The tags aren't that hard to remember, either. Do not bleach is the only one that you have to think, oh right the triangle is a bottle of bleach. The circle in a square is describing spin cycle. The circle with no square is describing drying without heat. The iron is describing an iron. The dots always represent the three levels of heat, just like on your iron. I remember this in spite of not having done laundry in 5…

> The dots always represent the three levels of heat, just like on your iron.

Just to highlight how non-universal these symbol are, I have never had an iron that has three levels of heat or that represents the levels with dots.

Re: Laundry symbols make no sense

#197

Post by masklinn » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

robonerd wrote: post #188

masklinn wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My US market washing machine has settings for "hot", "warm", and "cold" What the hell? That’s barbaric. > Do (eg) European washing machines instead typically have you set wash temp to an arbitrary number of °C? Not arbitrary except possibly on high-end machines but even entry-level stuff have temp settings for the usual stuff: cold (whatever’s out the tap), 30, 40, 60, 90.

How do you ever decide whether a load of laundry needs 30 or 40? Do you sum up all the laundry labels on each item of clothing then take the average? Personally, I leave my machine set to hot for everything. Hot water is what I use for washing in my dish washer, in my sink, in my shower.. hot water is for washing. That's how I see it.

> How do you ever decide whether a load of laundry needs 30 or 40? Do you sum up all the laundry labels on each item of clothing then take the average?

If you have enough laundry I expect you try to put stuff with similar requirements together in the same way you segregate whites and colors.

Though usually unless your laundry is quite dirty you'd go with 30 standard and shove everything in there, at 30 color shouldn't even be too much of a factor.

In all honesty I'm not quite sure why both are present, I think it's because older generations believed 30 would not be enough (as it's "human range" water), so 30 or cold would only be for the clothes which can't go any higher and 40 was the baseline.

Re: Laundry symbols make no sense

#198

Post by nmca » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #94

AdamH12113 wrote: post #36

I have always found laundry symbols confusing. I agree with other comments that this proposed replacement has too many problems to be acceptable, but surely someone can do better than "crossed-out triangle", "underlined water cup", "Cylon wearing a jaunty cap", and my personal favorite, "literally just a circle". Weird fact: Despite having been around for decades, laundry symbols have not been assigned Unicode code p…

There's nothing wrong with the symbols. Your washing machine is the one that should have a printed table of them somewhere. Take a look on those symbols: "A", "B", "C". A triangle with the basis moved up, two circles with a straight side, and an open circumference arc. They were abstract into complete meaningless, yet they are great for their use-case.

fwiw the Roman alphabet seems pretty suboptimal and the impossibility of switching is an example of a coordination problem, as opposed to an example of optimal design

Re: Laundry symbols make no sense

#199

Post by PebblesRox » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 7:16 PM UTC

robonerd wrote: post #187

marcosdumay wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing wrong with the symbols. Your washing machine is the one that should have a printed table of them somewhere. Take a look on those symbols: "A", "B", "C". A triangle with the basis moved up, two circles with a straight side, and an open circumference arc. They were abstract into complete meaningless, yet they are great for their use-case.

> Your washing machine is the one that should have a printed table of them somewhere. Neither of my laundry machines have any symbols on their control panels, only printed English. The only symbols I can find on them are the Explosion, Fire, and Shock warning stickers inside the rim of the doors.

I think OP meant "should" as in "ought to" not "should" as in "probably does."

Re: Laundry symbols make no sense

#200

Post by SkeuomorphicBee » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

The redesign is to much of the author's local iconography, it is less "global" than the original.

The worst offender being the representation of a front loading washing machine, while most of the developing world uses top loading washing machines. In my country all those "washing machine" icons would be incorrectly read as tumble dryer icons because here washers are top loaded and dryers are front loaded.