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In defense of cryptocurrency

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

191–200 of 578 posts

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#191
Most of Green's article goes through, except for the answer to the 'climate change' objection (Objection 1). Which is, of course, the most important, and without it, the article as a whole also fails to convince.

The problem is in this passage (mine the emphasis):

> But the question we should be asking is not whether to be angry about the power consumption of proof-of-work mining. We should be trying to figure out the right path out of this mess. And more concretely, whether there’s a path forward which is more likely to produce *a good outcome* than what is already happening in the industry — namely, that projects are rapidly deploying cleaner technologies to replace proof-of-work.

1. What is a "good outcome?" A good outcome for whom? A great outcome for most species, and most h.sapiens, would be an outright ban, because of the risk spread.

Think actuarially:

There is always the possibility the crypto industry trends cleaner, but legacy chains will be around for yonks, and bluechip crypto is unlikely to ever move off PoW. This means that, yes, while there is a possibility the industry might trend clean, this is an emormously polite way of saying that the downside risk is both severe and likely.

Put another way: if you were selling planet insurance, and you found out they had a lot of PoW crypto going on but were thinking about maybe one day kicking the habit, you'd probably either charge them a fortune or tell them to take a hike, right? Think actuarially.

There is also a suggestion that banning mining (or crypto transactions) might just move the action to other jurisdictions. This suggestion seems strained: for while a coordinated international treaty or ban might make time to confect, it's certainly not impossible. Powerful nations might, say, weave a crypto-ban requirement into multilateral trade agreements, like we already do for intellectual property.

A ban on crypto mining would likely be even easier to implement and spread, as most nation-states correctly view crypto as a threat to their command&control. I mean, look at Ecuador.

Finally, banning crypto would also be something nation-states could take back to their populations as proof of progress on climate change. And they'd even be right.

As harsh as it is for a supporter of crypto (and former industry wonk and former whole-coiner) to say this, I'm sincerely beginning to think that the lasting value of this whole Blockchain Thing has been the thought it has provoked. I, for one, would never have had to think so deeply about the nature of value and currency.

But you know what? These days, I stick to fiat.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. Think about the 3rd party as an escrow, not the bank. You wouldn't eliminate the escrow when you're buying a house, would you?

What's the fundamental difference between VISA, an escrow agent and a bank? Isn't VISA just an escrow agent between every transaction who also lends money and charges interest to the purchaser?

Actually, isn't a bank an escrow agent? As in, historically it was a banks jobs to escrow your money. Then to act as an escrow agent for transactions/etc.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#193
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'd need some kind of shared database that all parties can trust Government run then, the institution that is involved with contract oversight here, an easily identifiable authority in this situation. If you don't trust that here, then there's no point in bothering with sales contracts in the first place. > It'd have to be regularly audited but also kept as up to date as possible. It should have very precise acce…

I suspect we have different governments. I don't see mine doing anything remotely like that. I come from a place that still has toll booths so that toll booth workers can keep their jobs. I have to take off my shoes before I can get on an airplane so that my government feels safer. I personally compute my government taxes, which only occasionally (if ever) get verified. That's how we fund the country. If I routinely…

> I suspect we have different governments. I don't see mine doing anything remotely like that.

Then why are they going to bring in a blockchain solution? It's got the exact same problem there as any other software solution would.

That's my point here, making it a blockchain (or a database!) doesn't magically solve the root cause, it's just an implementation detail.

If it even is a problem (a lot of other posters don't seem to think so), the problem isn't that the data storage medium isn't decentralised, or that there's too much trust in the system, it's the absolute ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks. Choosing blockchain + API vs DB + API here doesn't address that. The gains come from modernising the system, not the storage tech.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#194
post #125

This is a genuine question. Is there a defense of cryptocurrencies that doesn't follow the pattern of, "yes, that is indeed true, however here is an edge case or counterexample which either doesn't exist yet, or is not in wide use so it's not actually a problem"? Every article or comment defending cryptocurrencies has followed this pattern and it isn't convincing to me. I'd love to have my mind changed, but when ever…

which argument do you find to be an "edge case"? My main argument in favor of crypto is the democratization of finance and leveling the playing field, which as we can already see crypto generally only has real benefits to the poor - for rich it's just a speculative play, but for the poor it can mean the difference between getting paid across borders without corruption stealing your money or being able to save wealth…

The general form is that crypto can't do X. The response is that an obscure implementation Y does do X. The problem is that Y, while existing, largely doesn't address X in practice because Y's trading volume and/or market cap is insignificant.

I guess to your point. How much corruption is avoided, and how much wealth is being saved that would otherwise be locked out? Without the means to quantify it, it feels like another, "this is theoretically possible"-type argument in the same way. The answer I expect to get is, "No one knows, but it is possible." I guess I'll keep waiting to be convinced. There are a lot of great things that are theoretically possible. Still waiting on them.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#195

This is a genuine question. Is there a defense of cryptocurrencies that doesn't follow the pattern of, "yes, that is indeed true, however here is an edge case or counterexample which either doesn't exist yet, or is not in wide use so it's not actually a problem"? Every article or comment defending cryptocurrencies has followed this pattern and it isn't convincing to me. I'd love to have my mind changed, but when ever…

I think it's a fair script to use against arguments of the form "cryptocurrencies will never amount to anything". I would hazard to say that it's not the criticism of the current state of cryptocurrency that irks most of its proponents - most of them agree that it's not very useful currently . However, it becomes problematic when you take that valid criticism of the technology's current state and use it to support th…

> If you want your mind changed that cryptocurrency is currently useful, I can't help you there. But if you want your mind changed that many of the drawbacks of blockchain technology are not as insurmountable as detractors would have you believe.

Let me summarize the sentiment to see if I'm understanding: "I'm excited about crypto now because of what crypto could be in the future."

To me it feels like being really excited about technology X because technology X+n might fix the problems with technology X. I just can't get behind that as a general principle. I've been hypeburned too much and I just don't have it in me anymore.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#196
post #98

"transaction reversibility is not about the ledger, but rather about the transaction rules that a currency uses. A reversible currency requires that someone anoint this trusted party (or trusted parties) and that they use their powers to freeze/burn/transact currency in ways that are at odds with the recorded owners’ intentions. And indeed, this is a capability that many tokens now possess" I think this is arguing th…

Many real world systems are "nearly trustless". Of course you still need some sort of court system if someone decides to break bad. But in the 99%+ of times you're in the happy path, economic transactions occur based on autonomous rules encoded in software. The analogy I like to use is what's harder to buy a $1 million house or $1 million of Microsoft stock? The former process takes weeks, and dozens of man hours fro…

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Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's old technology that has been around for a long time. There's nothing unique or special about it I don't know how on earth can people be so confidently wrong, with almost religious fervor backing it up. It's not morally superior to be ignorant. Have you even read the post to the end ? Blockchains do solve a well known problem in distributed systems in a novel way. The main novelty is PoW consensus, a probabilist…

I'm experienced enough to read what papers and proofs have been published, have been a programmer for longer than not, but don't take my word for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9nv0Ol-R5Q So they found one way to prevent Sybil attacks that has been a well-known problem. Big deal. Update A "blockchain" is not a novel concept. The PoW system used is one way to prevent Sybil attacks when distributing work among un…

I do find at least amusing to point out you started this thread with a comment that adamantly stated that "There's nothing unique or special about it [blockchains]"

Only to immediately follow it up by conceding your main point > "he PoW system used is one way to prevent Sybil attacks when distributing work among untrusted peers, and that's it. Novel, neat, but useless"

Ok, so you shifted the goal post from "there's nothing special about it" to "being novel and neat is insufficient for being 'special'". Whatever special means here.

The weirdest part is that your convictions (and concessions) are based on the Bitcoin whitepaper, which is quite literally the oldest part of modern day blockchains/cryptocurrencies.

Nakamoto style PoW consensus and the UTXO model bitcoin uses - never mind being very much novel and "special" - is the bedrock of the past 13 years of distributed systems and cryptographic research.

I'm more than happy to walk you through the landscape in question and the novel, neat, and useful things therein, but you seem quite content in your veil of ignorance. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#198
post #10

As we speak, regulators are being captured by the bad cryptocurrencies; if we allow that to play out then of course regulators won't come up with nuanced policies. It'll be mining and gambling for everyone, everwhere. We'd be better off banning it all now then later adding a carve-out for non-PoW, non-deflationary, reversible, scalable, private, actual digital cash.

I agree that all cryptocurrencies should be banned. This would root out all of the weak cryptocurrencies which are not private or resistant to censorship.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#199

> "The top credit-card merchant fee actually rose in the United States between 1991 and 2009, and this is a goddamn tragedy, since these fees are baked into the cost of most retail goods and thus born by the working poor (who pay them even if they use cash.) . . . Why are these IT-focused industries so consistently immune to the same technological improvements and cost reductions we see everywhere else?" The simplest…

This is why it makes sense to have a narionalised bank which can render financiap services at cost, rather than private, for profit banks.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#200
post #186

I was a crypto skeptic for many years. If you look at crypto purely from an engineering lens, you'll always find it wanting. What I didn't understand was that crypto is as much of an economic and political project, as it is an engineering project. If you think decentralisation and trustlessness are valuable, you should think crypto is important. If you don't care for decentralisation then being negative on crypto is…

Exactly, if you have complete faith and trust in conventional FIAT currencies and the systems they use to transact the use cases for crypto also seem far less compelling.

As an example, the appeal of deflationary Bitcoin is much more salient to a citizen of Argentina than to a citizen of the USA (although recent inflation might make the appeal more obvious). Or on the even more extreme end, the citizen of Zimbabwe would much rather have decentralised solid crypto of one sort or another than their local currency.

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