Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price • Hacker News Board

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#191

Post by argonaut » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:37 AM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #179

Someone1234 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I see "No Haggle, Fixed-Price, Online Only", I think "Rip Off", and I can't be the only one. Since I'll know a fair price of the vehicle before I run across that, I can determine if it is a "ripe off" or a fair market price, with far less hassle/wasted time. I'd always buy from a no haggle dealership if the price was competitive (and my last vehicle purchase was exactly that, it was +-$1K from normal price bas…

The problem arises when there is no other reference price to compare to. By only offering 1st party sales, and only on their website - Ford sets the reference price. So there will be no comparisons available... and gradually cars will get more expensive because they can and people will pay it.

The other reference prices are the list prices of competing vehicles.

You also have it backwards. The current system of "MSRP as guideline" and you have to negotiate to find the real price makes it more difficult to compare prices between cars and automakers (unless you relish negotiating the prices of 4 competing cars simultaneously at 4 different dealers). The current system is set up precisely to not be price transparent.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#192

Post by Someone1234 » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:38 AM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #179

Someone1234 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I see "No Haggle, Fixed-Price, Online Only", I think "Rip Off", and I can't be the only one. Since I'll know a fair price of the vehicle before I run across that, I can determine if it is a "ripe off" or a fair market price, with far less hassle/wasted time. I'd always buy from a no haggle dealership if the price was competitive (and my last vehicle purchase was exactly that, it was +-$1K from normal price bas…

The problem arises when there is no other reference price to compare to. By only offering 1st party sales, and only on their website - Ford sets the reference price. So there will be no comparisons available... and gradually cars will get more expensive because they can and people will pay it.

The reference price is then their competition, and since prices are not obfuscated you can compare 1:1.

Just like now, but dealerships add a whole layer you have to figure out by determining likely "discounts" between different brand's dealerships.

If the manufacturer could charge more they'd already be doing so, the dealership doesn't actually dictate the prices, they get told the price and are expected to negotiate up then keep the difference.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#193

Post by wumpus » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:38 AM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #43

phinnaeus wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what percentage of those F-150 owners know there is an EV version? Or put another way, how many of them can you convert to an EV version with effective advertising?

Does it matter when they’re sold out for two+ years? If you can’t make more why bother trying to get more buyers right now?

More demand now leads to more confident investment which leads to more actual growth in the end. Brand awareness advertising isn't only about orders today. It's about implanting the idea "Maybe I'll buy in EV in a couple of years when my truck wears out" in a consumer's head.

It's only when demand is completely out of hand, or when you don't want to Osborne yourself, that you want to stop advertising.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#194

Post by wumpus » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:40 AM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #188

wumpus wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who like negotiations generally think they're good at it. Guess what? The dealer sells multiple cars per day. You don't know enough to be a good negotiator against them. Same thing as venture capital vs company founders. Founders found a couple of companies which do a couple of rounds each. VCs make way more investments.

> Guess what? The dealer sells multiple cars per day. You don't know enough to be a good negotiator against them. Right - so let's get rid of negotiations all together and everyone pays whatever absurd price the sales team at Ford can think of without laughing out loud. This isn't a box of cookies folks... besides your house, it's likely the most expensive thing you'll ever buy. There is no "one" price for the asset.…

Wait what?

If there are no negotiations, and Ford's price is too high compared to the market, Ford is going to lose sales. That's micro-economics.

> besides your house, it's likely the most expensive thing you'll ever buy.

This is Hacker News, and I've spent 10s of millions on servers, colo, and cloud.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#195

Post by Alupis » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:41 AM UTC

argonaut wrote: post #184

Alupis wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I see "No Haggle, Fixed-Price, Online Only", I think "Rip Off", and I can't be the only one. It's not that I enjoy haggling with car salesmen, walking out the door and getting hunted down in the parking lot like an animal... I don't... in fact I hate it. But at the end of the day I get a deal I'm satisfied and comfortable with - and it's always below MSRP - far below. I think what we're seeing here is a combinat…

This doesn't make any sense. You would only feel ripped off because some dealerships say "No Haggle" and some do haggle. If every dealership has the same price for a specific car then literally by definition you cannot get ripped off. You're also fixating too much on the meaning of MSRP. Before the car shortage MSRP was basically just a marketing number to anchor negotiations at a high number (except for cars in supe…

To make it as clear as possible -

Dealerships compete to win your business. They compete in varying ways, which include price and service.

Who does Ford compete with if they set all of the prices and offer direct sales for an entire product line (EV's in this case)?

The answer is "nobody". And we all know competition is what benefits the consumer... this is a regression, not an advancement.

The dealership model can use a shake-up - nobody will argue otherwise. But the answer isn't to destroy competition and allow manufactures to set whatever price they want. That benefits literally nobody except Ford.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#196

Post by sammalloy » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:41 AM UTC

cbhl wrote: post #183

pavon wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I have nothing but bad experiences taking cars to the dealership for repair, and normally choose to avoid them for everything except for recalls. However, when buying an EV, I want to know that the manufacturer has repair facilities nearby since third-party EV mechanics are almost non-existent at this point. If Ford is deliberately bypassing their dealerships for sales, then I would expect the repair service…

I'm under the impression that the service part of the dealership _is_ the profitable part -- the car sales are more-or-less break-even after the monthly sales bonus incentives, which is why the dealer does the two-part "let me check with the guy in the back" and then "now that you've agreed to a price, you can talk to the guy in the back who will play 'good cop', explain things in plain english, and then try to upsel…

> I'm under the impression that the service part of the dealership _is_ the profitable part

If you drive a Ford, sure, it needs a lot of service. Which is why I stopped buying Ford. Toyota and Honda don’t need much service, and I don’t see how they are money makers for the dealer. And when you move to EV, you need even less service than before since the is no ICE to maintain.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#197

Post by zarathustreal » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:42 AM UTC

taeric wrote: post #50

paxys wrote: post #39

A lot has been said about the dealership model in the last few years, and the almost universal consensus is that it is an unnecessary and predatory industry and all auto makers should just sell cars directly like Tesla does. That being said, is there any counterpoint to this view? Are there any benefits that dealerships offer today over direct sales? What would we lose if we got rid of every dealership? If there is t…

Local profit? That is, in many towns, my understanding is that the local dealerships are relatively well off. Which implies that a bit more of the money is kept local to where the cars are being sold. I'm guessing this is less true today than in years past.

Why is "local profit" is assumed to be a positive thing? It seems to me that if we were to prove keeping money in certain places to be a benefit to society as a whole there would be much more effective and direct ways of making it happen

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#198

Post by Alupis » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:43 AM UTC

wumpus wrote: post #194

Alupis wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Guess what? The dealer sells multiple cars per day. You don't know enough to be a good negotiator against them. Right - so let's get rid of negotiations all together and everyone pays whatever absurd price the sales team at Ford can think of without laughing out loud. This isn't a box of cookies folks... besides your house, it's likely the most expensive thing you'll ever buy. There is no "one" price for the asset.…

Wait what? If there are no negotiations, and Ford's price is too high compared to the market, Ford is going to lose sales. That's micro-economics. > besides your house, it's likely the most expensive thing you'll ever buy. This is Hacker News, and I've spent 10s of millions on servers, colo, and cloud.

The problem is Ford will be the market. They are only offering these EV's direct from their website. There will be no dealerships to compete with on price and service.

> This is Hacker News, and I've spent 10s of millions on servers, colo, and cloud.

I'd bet you negotiated those contracts too.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#199

Post by argonaut » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:43 AM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #195

argonaut wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make any sense. You would only feel ripped off because some dealerships say "No Haggle" and some do haggle. If every dealership has the same price for a specific car then literally by definition you cannot get ripped off. You're also fixating too much on the meaning of MSRP. Before the car shortage MSRP was basically just a marketing number to anchor negotiations at a high number (except for cars in supe…

To make it as clear as possible - Dealerships compete to win your business. They compete in varying ways, which include price and service. Who does Ford compete with if they set all of the prices and offer direct sales for an entire product line (EV's in this case)? The answer is "nobody". And we all know competition is what benefits the consumer... this is a regression, not an advancement. The dealership model can u…

They compete with other automakers.

By your logic Ford can just jack up the price they charge to dealers and the dealers would have no choice but to accept it. But that's not true because Ford has to compete with other automakers.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#200

Post by BHSPitMonkey » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:43 AM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #188

wumpus wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who like negotiations generally think they're good at it. Guess what? The dealer sells multiple cars per day. You don't know enough to be a good negotiator against them. Same thing as venture capital vs company founders. Founders found a couple of companies which do a couple of rounds each. VCs make way more investments.

> Guess what? The dealer sells multiple cars per day. You don't know enough to be a good negotiator against them. Right - so let's get rid of negotiations all together and everyone pays whatever absurd price the sales team at Ford can think of without laughing out loud. This isn't a box of cookies folks... besides your house, it's likely the most expensive thing you'll ever buy. There is no "one" price for the asset.…

> everyone pays whatever absurd price the sales team

If it's truly absurd then they'll walk away and buy a cheaper car (or a used car) instead.