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The impact of digital media on children’s intelligence

nature.com

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Re: The impact of digital media on children’s intelligence

#191

Post by riskable »

Foobar8568 wrote: post #121
dash2 wrote: post #13

The fact that they "controlled" for genetics using polygenic scores already is a strong sign of low quality research. Polygenic scores are powerful, but they contain very large amounts of noise compared to the true genetic effects. Controlling for genetics using them is like controlling for income by asking whether the respondents own a Porsche. Also, be aware that Scientific Reports is, if not quite a predatory jour…

Pattern recognition+spacial rotation+quick answer to stimuli+repetitive tasks or short term memories, several IQ components are testing these. Kids might have higher IQ because of video games, but poorer to everything else that matters.

> Pattern recognition+spacial rotation+quick answer to stimuli+repetitive tasks

Sounds like we're training kids--through video games--to be fantastic CAD engineers and plumbers.

Re: The impact of digital media on children’s intelligence

#192

Post by DANK_YACHT »

rapind wrote: post #71
dash2 wrote: post #13

The fact that they "controlled" for genetics using polygenic scores already is a strong sign of low quality research. Polygenic scores are powerful, but they contain very large amounts of noise compared to the true genetic effects. Controlling for genetics using them is like controlling for income by asking whether the respondents own a Porsche. Also, be aware that Scientific Reports is, if not quite a predatory jour…

> If you wanna believe that your hours on COD have made you a genius, go ahead, I won't stop you. Just don't imagine that this research proves it. Video games, like all things, should not all be treated equal. I could certainly see problem solving skills developing from world building or highly complex games (Civ, PoE, etc.). In fact, most (but not all) highly successful games have depth, which requires time investme…

Any real-time PvP game has the ultimate puzzle: another human being. Once you're mechanically familiar with a PvP game, the game disappears, in a sense, and you're left trying to figure out the (very human) weaknesses of your opponent. It's quite a beautiful experience, and not one unique to video games. You see similar phenomena in sports and many other forms of competition as well.

Re: The impact of digital media on children’s intelligence

#193

Post by riskable »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #163
dash2 wrote: post #13

The fact that they "controlled" for genetics using polygenic scores already is a strong sign of low quality research. Polygenic scores are powerful, but they contain very large amounts of noise compared to the true genetic effects. Controlling for genetics using them is like controlling for income by asking whether the respondents own a Porsche. Also, be aware that Scientific Reports is, if not quite a predatory jour…

Anecdata but one thing I've noticed over time between those who grew up on video games and those who didn't is that those who were gamers deal better with change, especially WRT learning new software in the workplace, starting new projects, etc... Obviously though the benefits aren't there if people just mindlessly play the same game all day.

This makes sense: Every game is a new piece of software that has to be installed/inserted with its own interface and mechanics. If you played a lot of games it means you had to get used to using a lot of different interfaces and controls.

Re: The impact of digital media on children’s intelligence

#194

Post by boringg »

boringg wrote: post #114
the_only_law wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I could certainly see problem solving skills developing from world building or highly complex games (Civ, PoE, etc.). In fact, most (but not all) highly successful games have depth, which requires time investment and problem solving. I’m a big grand strategy fan, mostly Paradox games rn, and I almost feel like these are worse for me because the depth keeps me engaged longer (and honesty waste a lot of time) compare…

Ahh I agree with this. I think there is a benefit at the beginning in the learning process of the game but then it has seriously diminishing returns. I would put factorio in this category where once you get the model and have learned most of the curve you are then at diminishing returns or negative returns because of the painful way in that devs construct these games to keep you on for longer periods of times. I'm no…

I'll add to this I wish there was a game that didn't follow the traditionally.. now you've leveled up spend X time at this level/technology/etc before you go to the next one. Why not create a game that you can grow as fast as you can learn instead of putting in time barriers. Probably incentives for developers/game companies ruin that model but would be nice for a change.

Re: The impact of digital media on children’s intelligence

#195

Post by svnt »

slothtrop wrote: post #172
svnt wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the same. Sports have refs, coaches, and parents. Yes it is possible to get a bad outcome in sports but there is no container in competitive online gaming. It is Lord of the Flies by design.

> no container in competitive online gaming. Actually in competitive scenarios, e.g. tournaments, there are. Add to the fact ranked play is generally better behaved. Speaking of parents, from my experience playing hockey, they are usually the worst offenders. Yelling at not just the refs, but the kids too. I've seen intimidation in more than one occasion. At any rate, concern over the prospect of kids being "angry" i…

You think these eight-year-olds are playing video games in tournaments?

As someone who coaches elementary school sports players, I can tell instantly the ones who play online competitive video games and those who don’t. Sample size is maybe only ~40 kids, but I’m convinced.

Maybe it improves behavior later but the ones who do are initially the worst sports I’ve seen in my life. I have to spend time before every practice and game reiterating stuff like “it’s not ok to pretend to teabag the other players”.

I’ll agree parents have changed a lot since I played. I think the poor example they set influences this generation of parents.

Re: The impact of digital media on children’s intelligence

#196

Post by erikpukinskis »

thenerdhead wrote: post #65

If this study has you scratching your head about the impact of digital media, do have a read of "Four arguments for the elimination of television" by Jerry Mander. The arguments included in it are no different than many of these new studies coming out. If you grew up to be a latchkey kid and had your fair share of TV/video games/etc, it might give you perspective into things you never thought about. https://www.youtu…

Interesting perspective.

One of the things he mentions is that TV is passive, and puts you in an alpha state where your brain stops trying to respond because there’s no point in responding.

My partner and I do watch a few hours of TV every night now. But we don’t do this “alpha” thing, at least not exclusively. We pause frequently to comment on or joke about what we’re seeing. To the point that I think sometimes a 30 minute show will take us an hour to get through.

The way it works is one of holds the remote and pauses whenever they want to, and if the other wants to pause they just say “pause!”

I wonder how that changes Mander’s analysis. For us it make TV a pretty fun interactive experience.

And this way of watching was largely impossible when Mander did his work, because you simply couldn’t pause TV. Although you could pause a VCR or DVD.

I’m curious how widespread pausing is. I certainly feel that even solo TV watching is a more interactive experience than TV watching was when I was a kid. Alone, I’ll pause to Wikipedia things or to go find related media.

Re: The impact of digital media on children’s intelligence

#197

Post by dash2 »

DANK_YACHT wrote: post #188
dash2 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is not whether including polygenic scores is better than nothing. The point is whether it's good enough to justify the claims they are making. It's not. The same holds for SES. I disagree that this study presents decent evidence of anything. I don't claim that the conclusions are false. But they haven't backed them up. There are lots of ways that the observed trends can be spurious. I mentioned some. The st…

> The point is not whether including polygenic scores is better than nothing. The point is whether it's good enough to justify the claims they are making. It's not. What is the justification for this assertion? If polygenic scores are simply "noisy," then, as the GP mentioned, they may be good enough when used in aggregate. There can be a lot of signal in noisy data. Ask any ML practitioner.

Polygenic scores are themselves an aggregation. And they contain a ton of noise. From twin studies, R2 of the "true" polygenic score on education is about 40%. The R2 of our best actual polygenic score is 4%. IIRC these guys aren't even using the education polygenic score. They're using the PGS for IQ. That's even noisier (because it was created using smaller samples, and you need biiig samples for this to work).

Re: The impact of digital media on children’s intelligence

#198

Post by foobarian »

isolli wrote: post #73
brightball wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nintendo games on a console that don’t need an internet connection or include advertising. These have been the best combination for our kids where they have fun but aren’t addicted and can easily put them down. The moment games include advertising they optimize for all the wrong things. I won’t let my kids get free games on iPad, etc for this reason alone.

My daughter is transitioning from children's games to pre-teen games, and I can't find a single acceptable game on the tablet. Until now I hadn't realized how sensible Apple's rules around children's games had been, notably: no internet connection required, and no ads.

Plug for Stavros K's site: No-bullshit games! https://nobsgames.stavros.io/

Re: The impact of digital media on children’s intelligence

#199

Post by the_af »

svnt wrote: post #167
the_af wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you only have one child?

Then congratulations you already know how to create his proposed solution.

Haha.

But seriously, additional children come with their own pros and cons. Plus, of course, there's the thing about wanting more than one child.

Re: The impact of digital media on children’s intelligence

#200

Post by colinmhayes »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #78
watwut wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very very honestly, my experience with people who watch Disney too much is much much better then with excessive gamers. Only one of those groups yells, swears and is vent their anger at people around when they loose the match. For the record, my kids do play games, I never did complete ban. But, the gaming does not seem to be superior, does not zombify them less nor leads to more inventive play after session finished…

Because competitive games are a cesspit. Even games with highly competitive PvE aspects have this problem (MMOs, most notably). Ironically, those are also the games which allow for the highest time investment for the common player. Mostly because everyone is online and anonymous, which subsequently keeps their filters from activating. By comparison, I've never had a local game of Mario Party remotely as heated as the…

The one thing everyone who plays a competitive game has in common is wishing they played less. Part of it is definitely self selection, people who aren't competitive never start playing these games
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