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EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

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Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#191

Post by newsclues »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #144
hulitu wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your government who wants to control you. Or do you still think that data is collected just so that Google can give you more ads ?

> Your government who wants to control you How exactly? In Italy we had 67 different governments since 1946. What can they do with CSAM data? Government can't blackmail citizen, they can't use CSAM scans for other purposes, they can't even authorize a scan, because that's the justice system prerogative. Do you really believe that in Europe governments are in control of everything like it happens in Russia or in North…

"Do you really believe that in Europe governments are in control of everything like it happens in Russia or in North Korea?"

No, but I really believe European leaders are jealous of the authoritarian powers they lack, and are working to resolve that.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#193

Post by peoplefromibiza »

pc86 wrote: post #184
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The automated filter won't care about the context though That's why we have a justice system. Specifically not a common law based one, which is kinds scary per se. People are innocent until proven guilty and the burden of proof's on the prosecution. We are talking about EU here, not Sudan.

1. What makes you think Sudan (or NK, or Russia, or China) won't get their hands on this technology? 2. What makes you think every government in the entire EU will always have the people's best interests at heart? 3. What makes you think #2 is true even today? It seems like this technology could be very easy to abuse, to great public detriment. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

> 1. What makes you think Sudan (or NK, or Russia, or China) won't get their hands on this technology?

their problem!

they have more pressing issues already!

and some of them have already implemented worse ways of surveilling their citizens.

In this regards, even USA is far worse than EU!

> 2. What makes you think every government in the entire EU will always have the people's best interests at heart?

I don't, that's why we constantly check on them and change them if we don't like them

> 3. What makes you think #2 is true even today?

Because I live in EU and everywhere else I look the situation is far worse.

> It seems like this technology could be very easy to abuse, to great public detriment. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

Like any technology!

Funny that guns are abused daily in US but the biggest preoccupation of HN is potential abuse of CSAM filters in EU...

Which would also be illegal!

If the filter has to be used for CSAM content, it can't be used for anything else.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#194

Post by 2pEXgD0fZ5cF »

jstummbillig wrote: post #41

The HN attitude on anything touching privacy with a ten foot pole is awkward at best. It's clearly a hard problem and increasingly so. Being dogmatic about privacy regulations without a solution for the abuse caused by those who are open to abusing others seems a little too internet-hippie to be taken seriously in 2022, and that's a little concerning when it's the echo chambers of those best qualified and responsible…

Except that the people who actually know what they are talking about when it comes to child protection disagree with you and the politicians trying to force this through.

According to the DKSB (Deutscher Kinderschutzbund) [2], encryption barely plays a role when it comes to the distribution of CSAM [1]. DKSB is not in favour of this.

You can pretend as much as you want that this is about children, that doesn't make it true. This was never, at any moment, about protecting children. Authorities already lack the resources to even go after the cases they know about, adding a huge pile of crap data to work through is probably going to make this situation even worse.

[1]: https://www.eu-info.de/dpa-europaticker/316232.html

[2]: https://www.dksb.de/en/home/

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#195

Post by krono »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #93
krono wrote: post #7

Yeah not like this. I will turn myself into a black hole as much as possible. If they somehow ever come to suspect me of these things I will gladly do anything I can to support their investigations. They can come by with a warrant, look through my message history specifically and only for evidence related to their investigation, it will happen in my presence, and no copies of my data will be made and/or fed into the…

No, that's not how you should be thinking. You say nothing, you give no access, and you demand a lawyer and a search warrant. You do not need to cooperate. You cannot trust any police or investigators. This isn't about whether you are guilty of anything or not, this is about basic human rights, the right to privacy, and due process of law.

  > due process of law
That is exactly what I want. Not having committed any such crimes, and having been incredibly lucky to be born into the sort of life where I feel like I can trust the process being fair and just, I am not particularly worried about an investigation.

This is the precise inverse of how I feel about the general permanent monitor and analysis that is now being proposed. These systems are inaccurate, opaque, and uncontrollable. It makes me feel like cattle being driven towards the man with the rod.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#196

Post by newsclues »

_Algernon_ wrote: post #132
op00to wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, here's what will really happen: 5:30am, loud knock at the door. You open the door a crack to see who it is. Cops bust in. You're immediately handcuffed and sat outside. Cops take anything with a screen, usb plug, etc. All your media. All your computers. All your external hard drives. Every one of these devices will be imaged, and archived prior to being searched. The data will be kept for years, to pro…

As if full disk encryption doesn't exist.

Encrypted data will be illegal for plebs. Failure to hand over passwords will be punished as if you are guilty of the worst thing imaginable.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#197

Post by crmd »

zosima wrote: post #74
Freak_NL wrote: post #47

It's scary, because CSAM (child sexual abuse material) is very, very broad, and quite vague in its definition¹. My three year old son stayed with my parents for a week, and he was being taught to swim in their swimming pool. Of course, I get sent pictures and clips of his progress by a proud grandma, and of course, him being a toddler, he felt swimming trunks to be completely optional (and of course, they are at his…

Don't worry, as this is not about child sex abuse anyway. The legislators know, from experience, that it's hard to argue against measures to protect children from predators, and so they are free to launch controversial and unacceptable measures. Once in place, it will be extended to other purposes. The same as always.

Quoting Adam Curtis from The Power of Nighmares:

> In the past, politicians promised to create a better world. They had different ways of achieving this, but their power and authority came from the optimistic visions they offered their people. Those dreams failed and today people have lost faith in ideologies. Increasingly, politicians are seen simply as managers of public life, but now they have discovered a new role that restores their power and authority. Instead of delivering dreams, politicians now promise to protect us: from nightmares. They say that they will rescue us from dreadful dangers that we cannot see and do not understand.

They had a great 20 year run on the terrorism narrative, but they need a new nightmare, and they’ve apparently settled on child predators.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#198

Post by chinathrow »

emteycz wrote: post #122
chinathrow wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same as always. Do you have a guess about who is behind that lasting global push against private communications?

Why does it have to be a somebody? It's almost every politician since the invention of privacy. It's not a cabal, they just have common goals. Edit: can't reply. The endgame is control over the population - taxing them, imprisoning them, etc. Why? I don't know, some people just like to be in (absolute) power.

And what are these common goals then? I really don't see the endgame here.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#199

Post by pc86 »

stef25 wrote: post #58
Freak_NL wrote: post #47

It's scary, because CSAM (child sexual abuse material) is very, very broad, and quite vague in its definition¹. My three year old son stayed with my parents for a week, and he was being taught to swim in their swimming pool. Of course, I get sent pictures and clips of his progress by a proud grandma, and of course, him being a toddler, he felt swimming trunks to be completely optional (and of course, they are at his…

You're probably not the first person to ask the question of "but what about parents taking pictures of their naked kids in a pool", I'm sure they plan on having some way of dealing with it if anything to lighten their workload. That doesn't mean it will be perfect but no matter how jaded we all are, nobody wants to start falsely accusing innocent people.

> nobody wants to start falsely accusing innocent people

I mean this is just blatantly false. History has shown us this is false. Even if you think the current government is fully comprised of kind-hearted, magnanimous, good people, what makes you think that will be the case for the next 10, 50, 100 years?

A story - I have a google alert set up for my name. Someone in a different state with the same name was recently arrested. I've gotten 5-6 alerts every day for the last week from various local (to him) newspaper and television station websites announcing his arrest. Name, address, age, alleged offenses, etc. How many will I get if he's found innocent two years from now? My guess is, at most, 1 or 2. Why would we want AI, even with human verification (which is just them checking the hashes match, anyway, so not real "verification"), to trigger the cascade of events that would occur from someone getting arrested for CSAM based on this technology? It would ruin someone's life. Now if I'm being honest, if someone actually has CSAM, I couldn't care less if they end up homeless and their life is actually ruined. But taking a step back, and acknowledging that someone innocent will get caught by this, as it's just a matter of time at that point, it's not worth it. If we had a society where you could just say in a job interview "oh yeah that was a false positive, I can prove it" and that's that, then there's a bit more of an argument to be made. But that's not our society. Once your name pops up with this kind of thing, that's who you are for the rest of your life, guilty or not.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#200

Post by [deleted] »

flavius29663 wrote: post #104
a-dub wrote: post #48

seems like maybe a better approach might be to require software developers to give parents/guardians features that allow a comprehensive view into the online activities of their children. although unclear, that creates more visibility than has ever existed and could cause problems for kids who have different views from their parents. we're in uncharted territory, really.

This is not about parent control, it's about people doing horrible porn with toddlers and then distributing it to other adults.

[deleted]
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