Live data from Hacker News

Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

healthcareitnews.com

191–200 of 1001 posts

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance companies. Everything is controlled by insurance companies. You can’t do anything unless it’s exactly how insurance wants and only for what insurance will pay. It limits everything, including how every profession can be compensated simply because you can’t easily hire somebody for more than what insurance will pay for their services. You can, but the funds have to come from somewhere.

Have US hospitals ever had transparent pricing? This seems like the root of the problem, and insurance seems like what "fixes" that but causes tons of downstream unwanted side-effects.

Yes. Prior to insurance. Insurance is the reason prices aren't transparent; insurance companies demanded discounts, so providers raised their prices to then say "you're saving X from list". But not every company had the same bargaining power, and individuals had none, so the actual desirable price to offer couldn't be made broadly available. With a hidden price (so no shopping around), that is discounted at wildly different rates (so no meaningful way for third parties to track it), and a necessary service (so no just avoiding it), in a private for profit industry, of course it skyrockets.

Our options are either to mandate publicly available price lists that are adhered to and hope the market pushes things downwards, mandate prices, or socialize insurance (so that the sole representative of everyone can negotiate the price downwards using the leverage of the provider risking losing most if not all their clients). Or, you know, keep doing what we're doing which is working so well (/sarcasm).

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#192
post #17

While it's anecdote, every single peer in bedside medical care I know without exception has either left the field, or has immediate plans to as soon as student loan debt is repaid. The few older medical professionals in my family are simply sticking out the last few years until they can retire early. This was generally the case prior to pandemic due to how poor the work environment has become, but the pandemic seems…

Insurance companies. Everything is controlled by insurance companies. You can’t do anything unless it’s exactly how insurance wants and only for what insurance will pay. It limits everything, including how every profession can be compensated simply because you can’t easily hire somebody for more than what insurance will pay for their services. You can, but the funds have to come from somewhere.

> Everything is controlled by insurance companies. You can’t do anything unless it’s exactly how insurance wants and only for what insurance will pay.

Framed that way, this sounds terrible. But... the truth is actual health care outcomes for insured patients in the USA are extremely good. This holds in comparison to other nations, when corrected for GDP and patient income, etc...

"Insurance companies" are, at least in the narrow sense, doing what we pay them to do really well.

They may or may not be making things easier for nurses, which is a different metric. But nurses aren't their customers, we are. And we're getting a fairly good[1] product.

[1] Albeit extremely expensive relative to other nations.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#193

Hard profession but one of the last things to be automated imo, guaranteed income for next 30-40 years. Don't think you can say the same about certain types of doctors for instance.

A friend who is an anesthesiologist said that he was retiring because the new machines were so good that no one wanted to pay for an anesthesiologist anymore. They were happy with a nurse. So you're right.

It is very algorithmic in nature afaik, so quite easy to automate. As is oncology, radiology and many aspects of family medicine. It won't be tomorrow, but 10-20 years from now I think is very realistic for huge changes. Brave new world...

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#194
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance companies. Everything is controlled by insurance companies. You can’t do anything unless it’s exactly how insurance wants and only for what insurance will pay. It limits everything, including how every profession can be compensated simply because you can’t easily hire somebody for more than what insurance will pay for their services. You can, but the funds have to come from somewhere.

Insurance is the only industry where they agree to pay for something (in this case, "medical care"), but then after service has been rendered can decide to pay less, or not pay at all, or stop paying that provider altogether, etc. This combined with hospitals being run by non-physicians*, and people thinking being able to Google and read WebMD qualifies them to argue with their doctor about treatment plans**, healthc…

As a quick counter-point to *, there is another sub-problem with healthcare/doctors in the US, where often patients with chronic illnesses or not-easily-testable conditions have to fight hard for doctors to take them seriously. The why of this varies a lot from what I've seen, but includes:

- an attitude of "most patients are just trying to wring medications out of you" - an ego-hit of "if I didn't make the diagnosis, I don't want to help" (this applies to both patients coming in with a suspicion of what they have, or getting a diagnosis from another doctor) - burn-out/overworking, where doctors have a hard time managing all the different cases coming at them without dropping the ball here and there

It's not a simple, single-cause problem at all, but just want to provide an alternative point of view about patients who look things up or come in asking about a specific condition or diagnosis.

When I got my ADHD diagnosis after a quarter-century, I went in specifically asking about ADHD because I had seen some flags that made me think I might have ADHD. Contrast that with the people doctors screen out who are trying to get a stimulant prescription despite not needing it, and you have a situation where it's hard for doctors to tell who does or doesn't need meds, and where patients with actual conditions have to fight hard for those to be diagnosed.

Even in cases like POTS, which has no medication involved in treatment, just lifestyle changes, and yet people close to me who have POTS all had an uphill battle getting it recognized by anyone, especially doctors who could diagnose (disclaimer: sample size = 3).

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#195
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have US hospitals ever had transparent pricing? This seems like the root of the problem, and insurance seems like what "fixes" that but causes tons of downstream unwanted side-effects.

It’s always astonishing how I can get a fully itemized vet bill right after a visit and pay for it. Meanwhile going to the hospital is like “well gee, let’s submit to insurance, see what they’ll pay, we’ll readjust prices and then come back to you in a few months.”

More than that, I can get an estimate upfront, that in 100% of cases matches the bill unless they find something additional they need to do, which they'll inform me of and create a new total estimate for.

Of note, my vet insurance doesn't negotiate on my behalf; they just pay X% afterwards. The price the provider quotes for a given service is the price everyone gets (probably; some of the smaller vets might modify it if someone is low income and in need).

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#196
post #17

While it's anecdote, every single peer in bedside medical care I know without exception has either left the field, or has immediate plans to as soon as student loan debt is repaid. The few older medical professionals in my family are simply sticking out the last few years until they can retire early. This was generally the case prior to pandemic due to how poor the work environment has become, but the pandemic seems…

> How doctors of all professions lost their professional agency to do-nothing administrators within a generation is quite puzzling and a bit terrifying to me. I have a lot of friends at various levels of healthcare, from nursing up through low and mid-level administrative positions. The one thing they all seem to agree on is that patient satisfaction surveys have been terrible for healthcare. Once the emphasis shifte…

"The one thing they all seem to agree on is that patient satisfaction surveys have been terrible for healthcare."

My Wife is an ER nurse manager and while you have many self entitled idiotic patients that think they are staying in a resort versus visiting an ER, the patient satisfaction surveys is not very high in regards to the issue and why nurses are leaving.

My wife actually had a person complain that the ER did not have cow bells to call for a nurse (She claimed to be a retired nurse and they always had that for back up, lol) and they constantly complain how come they came in first for a stubbed toe, but another patient with a gunshot wound or heart attack is being seen first.

The bigger issue as why nurses are leaving the field from what she has seen and experienced is:

1. wages: The wages are beyond inadequate in certain nursing specialties and many have left to become traveling nurses or contracted nurses that get paid double the standard nurse pay.

2. Burn out: Besides covid, Hospitals Patient to nurse ratio is often exceeded and no accountability for the hospital to break those ratios. Nor any consideration for a high demand patient versus a low demand patient. Then when something goes wrong the hospital looks to pin it on the nurses. This was an issue before covid . but covid just added fuel to the fire.

3. BS. nurses get bs from ALL sides. They get bs from the patients and even more bs from upper management who set unrealistic process in place that is more concerned by hiding accountability and making things look good on paper than actual patient care. Then you had that whole BS covid movement crap calling nurses hero but besides lip service they did absolutely nothing for them. In fact they did the opposite. I know my wife had to fight the executives because they wanted to make nurses use their vacation time for sick time if they got covid. Their explanation for this that if the nurses got covid it was not likely from the hospital as the hospital takes extreme precautions to prevent it. The funny thing was that the same hospital spewing that BS also wanted nurses to not wear mask due to possible shortages at the beginning of covid. Insert the BS is to DAMN High meme here.

4. RaDonda Vaught's conviction. This is certainly not helping the case to get more nurses.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#198
post #17

While it's anecdote, every single peer in bedside medical care I know without exception has either left the field, or has immediate plans to as soon as student loan debt is repaid. The few older medical professionals in my family are simply sticking out the last few years until they can retire early. This was generally the case prior to pandemic due to how poor the work environment has become, but the pandemic seems…

Insurance companies. Everything is controlled by insurance companies. You can’t do anything unless it’s exactly how insurance wants and only for what insurance will pay. It limits everything, including how every profession can be compensated simply because you can’t easily hire somebody for more than what insurance will pay for their services. You can, but the funds have to come from somewhere.

I've worked with both, and by far hospitals are much, much worse actors.

Hospitals are legally enforced local monopolies (look up Certificates of Need). Meanwhile, you might have a dozen choices of insurance companies, but they all suck because they have to take what the hospital billing departments give them and take the blame or risk being dumped by the hospital.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#199
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance is the only industry where they agree to pay for something (in this case, "medical care"), but then after service has been rendered can decide to pay less, or not pay at all, or stop paying that provider altogether, etc. This combined with hospitals being run by non-physicians*, and people thinking being able to Google and read WebMD qualifies them to argue with their doctor about treatment plans**, healthc…

> I strongly believe that only physicians should be running hospitals. This is how it is for other professional industries. As an attorney, you can lose your license for sharing any profits with someone who isn't a lawyer. I believe states typically require accounting and engineering firms to either be wholly or two-thirds owned by such professionals as well.

Many states of laws regulating the "corporate practice of medicine." But it seems like that leads to a hospital just being bunch of loosely held together independent businesses/contractors.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#200

Nurses complain about their work conditions, but I don't understand them. They had this massive leverage during the pandemic to discuss improvements. Some people may say "Oh but it is illegal for nurses to strike in country X", but what will governments and companies realistically do if all nurses decide to stop, arrest everyone and let the health system collapse? Not a reasonable option. There's just something masoc…

It seems like your comment would be better directed towards weak or absent nurse unions, instead of individuals. I had countless nurse and physician friends go to their hospital directors/HR/managers during the pandemic "I need a raise because I have absorbed the load of 3 other workers and am working harder than ever." Not only were they refused, many instead received 10-33% pay cuts, with hospitals citing increased Opex costs despite decreased staffing, significant government assistance, and increased volunteer (0-cost) help.

It'd also be enlightening for people in this thread to have hospital executives explain how they have some of the highest patient numbers in history yet they're hemorrhaging so much money their physicians had to take pay cuts.

Nurses, due to their profession having relatively low barriers to entry yet requiring years of operational knowledge to truly be effective, need collective bargaining. Nurses do strike, and nurse strikes are actively occurring on the U.S. West Coast. However, the unions they represent are small and have little power overall. For a strike to be successful you need solidarity from a majority of workers in the area you want to impact. You also need buy-in from the hospital/region that union nurses will provide superior care to non-union nurses. Something that's hard to do when your average executive thinks that the most complicated thing a nurse does is sticking a patient.

Post reply on HN