Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#191

Post by maxerickson » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:17 PM UTC

tssva wrote: post #166

NortySpock wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not your parent poster, but the tanks are commonly installed above-ground in the rural USA. It is propane (C3H8), which is liquid under pressure. Tanks are refilled as needed depending on usage via a tanker truck. I assume this is monthly but I don't personally have one. In the US, natural gas normally refers to methane (CH4) heating, attached to a city methane heating grid. I pay a monthly bill per cubic foot of met…

As residential development continues to expand and natural gas delivery systems do not to match in many areas the use of propane has moved beyond the rural US. I have a house in a suburban neighborhood developed in the last 10 years and all the houses have buried propane tanks instead of natural gas hookups. The propane fuels heating systems, hot water heaters and stove tops. Most have grills and fire pits also attac…

A township I lived in had a provision against natural gas in the master plan.

Not sure if it was an actual blocker, or just a statement that there was no plan to install infrastructure.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#192

Post by uniqueuid » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:18 PM UTC

diskapital wrote: post #122

beberlei wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company. In that case the gas contracts would have been void including its negotiated prices (under currebt market value) and the currency in euro instead of rubbels.

> Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company. Is that illegal? I wonder about rule of law. We talk about this as sacrosanct here in the "West". It is funny that when push comes to shove (in my perception at least), we're quick to break the rules to get the outcome we want. When say a 3rd world country does something like this in response to a "Western" multinational's actions (perhaps a controversial…

There is a huge difference between the rule of law in proper democracies ("Rechtsstaaten") and arbitrary political decisions in totalitarian states (such as Russia).

German ministers can implement some draconian decisions, but they are operating in a large system of checks and balances, including independent courts and required parliamentary support for passing legislation.

The two scenarios are therefore roughly as similar as the arbitrary power of the owner of a privately held firm and the constrained power of a CEO of a publicly traded company.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#193

Post by op00to » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:19 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #169

maratc wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also has contracts with Gazprom in Russia with guaranteed Prices and Deliveries. Is anyone under an illusion that Gazprom in Russia will honor these contracts, now that their branch was seized? And if not, what methods are there to enforce these contracts? The Russians seized the planes, which can fly but need spares and checks. The Germans seized the pipelines and the storage. Both have some utility in the inte…

“We seized your property under exigent circumstances, but you better honor your contracts rather than cancel them under exigent circumstances!” - NATO, apparently delusional The idea people will “honor” contracts while you’re (illegally) seizing their property in effort to enact an economic siege of their nation is mental illness — either delusions or megalomania. That strategy doesn’t make sense. I’m personally sad…

I'm sorry, what did NATO seize again? It was Germany. Germany is not NATO. If you're going to participate in the discussion, at least keep your actors straight.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#194

Post by danaris » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:19 PM UTC

ithkuil wrote: post #120

ericmay wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine wasn’t armed with hi-tech weaponry until Russia started invading in 2014 and then continued being a bad actor which culminated in January/February 2022 delivery of said weapons at the last second. NATO expansion is a convenient excuse but fails for two reasons: 1. Baltics are closer to Moscow than Ukraine and right on the border. 2. It is widely acknowledged that the primary driver for Putin is not NATO expan…

this! Yeah, this argument about the NATO threat is repeated ad nauseam because it superficially sounds like a reasonable justification: "they just had to defend themselves". But even if that was true, Otto von Bismarck said it well: "Preventive war is like committing suicide out of fear of death". Imagine an alternate universe where Ukraine joins EU and NATO and now russia faces a NATO "wall" on the west. In this alt…

> Are they afraid that one morning NATO will invade Russia?

From everything I've heard thus far, Putin is afraid that NATO will prevent him from reconstituting the USSR under him.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#195

Post by DebtDeflation » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:19 PM UTC

Etherlord87 wrote: post #47

throwaway4good wrote: post #18

I hope I one day get to visit a Russian nationalized McDonalds; just to fully grasp what deglobalization means ...

Currently it's probably the same stuff as the original McDonalds. Eventually the quality will deteriorate due to lack of supervision - unless Russians will do an equal job in supervising, which I doubt.

I hear the Polonium McFlurries are to die for, but the machine is usually broken.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#196

Post by recuter » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:19 PM UTC

neuronic wrote: post #174

archerx wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I wonder if the Greens are actually funded by petrol companies because everything they do seems to benefit them in the end. In Switzerland the Greens are trying to be as dumb as the German ones.

There are dumb aspects about the German Greens ("Veggie Day") but they do a good job moving Germany into the right energy direction today. Your criticism is generally unwarranted and the data shows it. I think we shouldn't use words like "dumb" at all because we are all trying to bring about the most sensible, safe and productive energy future for our nations. These nations have different circumstances and demands an…

> I'm not even talking about technology, safety or waste disposal at all. There is no reason to even go there because today NO energy provider in their right mind will build new nuclear plants today (and they won't matter anyway because building one takes 10+ years). The decision is a result of cost and not technological misunderstanding or ignorance.

Yes, obviously.

  German chocolate manufacturer Ritter Sport has decided to continue working in Russia. According to Ritter Sport, about 7% of its business is in the Russian market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schröder#Relationship_...

Money makes the world go around. You got in bed with Russia for cheap energy, which you enjoyed for a decade or two, and it cost you an increase in your defense spending and some dead Ukrainians.

Lets hope that's all it will cost you. Of course you had no choice, it is the invisible hand.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#197

Post by mensetmanusman » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:19 PM UTC

rgmarker wrote: post #121

martimarkov wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you forget that Ukraine has the right of agency and has the right to choose to join a defensive union. I'm also finding it hard to get any concrete examples of offensive actions by NATO. So far every single one seems to be okay with Russia (given they didn't veto it in the UN security council).

Suppose the following reversed situation: - There is still a Warsaw Pact. - An Orange Revolution happens in Canada in 2014, backed by KGB neocon equivalents of Nuland/Graham. - A Russia friendly regime is installed in Canada in 2014. - Canada has regions with large U.S. populations. - Canada keeps pushing for Warsaw Pact membership. - At a security conference in Munich in 2022, Canada's Russia friendly prime minister…

In this analogy the US also agreed to protect Canada’s security for denuclearization, which they would have done (I.e. defanged threat).

Russia ignoring the Budapest memorandum will be the most damning long term consequence since it teaches everyone that you will be attacked if you denuclearize.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#198

Post by laurent92 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:20 PM UTC

manuelabeledo wrote: post #164

Only tangential to the article, but does anyone find risky that absolutely critical services depend on one or two foreign private companies? And other than losing money, what would be the consequences of Gazprom pulling out of Germany completely? I’m guessing that Russia just doesn’t have enough economic leverage to do so.

Do you think it is fine for EDF to operate 8 nuclear plants of UK, “outside EU”? Do you think it is fine for Gmail to suppress email accounts of entire companies in Europe? Especially if they already did it for individuals and their work Gmail.

I think we live in a dangerously intertwined world, and a bit of email redundancy in each country would be quite important.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#199

Post by kadoban » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:21 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #169

maratc wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also has contracts with Gazprom in Russia with guaranteed Prices and Deliveries. Is anyone under an illusion that Gazprom in Russia will honor these contracts, now that their branch was seized? And if not, what methods are there to enforce these contracts? The Russians seized the planes, which can fly but need spares and checks. The Germans seized the pipelines and the storage. Both have some utility in the inte…

“We seized your property under exigent circumstances, but you better honor your contracts rather than cancel them under exigent circumstances!” - NATO, apparently delusional The idea people will “honor” contracts while you’re (illegally) seizing their property in effort to enact an economic siege of their nation is mental illness — either delusions or megalomania. That strategy doesn’t make sense. I’m personally sad…

Okay, then Russia can keep their gas and have even lower income of cash (which they need to pay debts, by the way).

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#200

Post by gumby » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 1:22 PM UTC

diskapital wrote: post #122

beberlei wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company. In that case the gas contracts would have been void including its negotiated prices (under currebt market value) and the currency in euro instead of rubbels.

> Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company. Is that illegal? I wonder about rule of law. We talk about this as sacrosanct here in the "West". It is funny that when push comes to shove (in my perception at least), we're quick to break the rules to get the outcome we want. When say a 3rd world country does something like this in response to a "Western" multinational's actions (perhaps a controversial…

> > Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company.

> Is that illegal? I wonder about rule of law. We talk about this as sacrosanct here in the "West".

Ignoring the geopolitical aspects and the “critical infrastructure” aspects: yes it’s illegal everywhere to unilaterally abrogate a contract or to use bankruptcy or such rules to evade contract.

Normally of course this would be handled through the courts, but the answer to your question is “yes”