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Time to fork the FSF

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Re: Time to fork the FSF

#191

Post by stonemetal »

0x12 wrote: post #151
aaronmorey wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a microcosm of a problem I've seen in the open source area in general... a preference for code over people. Open source software won't take over by being 1.86x faster and using a totally sweet heap sort algorithm. I'm a geek and I find that kind of thing interesting at an intellectual level, but it doesn't make me want to spend an entire Saturday trying to get Linux to recognize my sound card. "Normal…

> but it doesn't make me want to spend an entire Saturday trying to get Linux to recognize my sound card. Stuff like that is FUD though, linux sound support is pretty good these days and the amount and variety of devices supported dwarfs the best the commercial world has to offer. In general, Linux support of legacy devices is amazing. Newly minted hardware without a factory supported driver is a different kettle of…

When I bought a new box last year I couldn't get wireless to work. Until I went in to some random config file and forced it to load an older version of the driver because the new fancy version that is shipped doesn't actually work.

But thanks for proving his point by calling him a liar.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#192

Post by gbog »

philwelch wrote: post #63
learc83 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't always agree with RMS, I think he truly believes everything he says. I don't think the same of Fred Phelps. I long ago reached the conclusion that he tries to say the most inflammatory thing possible wether he really believes it or not. I have no idea why, but I believe he has some other agenda than just the condemnation of homosexuality. I've even almost seriously entertained the idea that he is a clos…

Phelps is the personal embodiment of Poe's Law.

As a side note, it is annoying to see you guys talk about a Phelbs that is not known outside US, and do not seem to be an interesting fellow. At least when you were talking about Jobs, the remains of the world knew who he was.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#193

Post by DanBC »

alain94040 wrote: post #190
DanBC wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not outrage at Stallman's comments, but asking whether someone who is horrendously, gratuitously crass, offensive and insensitive of people's emotions should be "cheerleading" free software. See also RMS's disappointment at the developer busy with a new child - start here ( http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/36137 ) His inability to understand people is distracting from the aims of FSF.

Indeed: >It doesn't take special talents to reproduce--even plants can do it. On the other hand, contributing to a program like Emacs takes real skill.

That wasn't the first time RMS had said something like that, but to say it to a fellow dev, when you're asking that person to fix someone else's bug, seems particularly unaware.

For sure, Asperger's or Autism explains it, but doesn't make it much easier to deal with.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#194

Post by za »

learc83 wrote: post #14
bcrescimanno wrote: post #3

I tweeted earlier that I see RMS as the Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Church) of Free Software. He may not have started out this way; but these days he's completely single issue. If you're not doing free software 100% his way; you not only disagree with him but you are actually evil. Not just free software; but free software as RMS defines it(see GNU/Linux) or you're wrong. He's so blinded by his own zealotry that I'…

While I don't always agree with RMS, I think he truly believes everything he says. I don't think the same of Fred Phelps. I long ago reached the conclusion that he tries to say the most inflammatory thing possible wether he really believes it or not. I have no idea why, but I believe he has some other agenda than just the condemnation of homosexuality. I've even almost seriously entertained the idea that he is a clos…

The inflammatory agenda makes sure his group stays alienated from society and within his control.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#195

Post by pbhjpbhj »

sliverstorm wrote: post #74
jpadvo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not at all with his opinion. It is that he expressed it in a horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive way. Here is a transliteration into humane language of what he said: "My heart goes out to Steve Jobs' family in their time of grief. And my heart also goes to the millions of people who looked up to him as an icon and inspiration. But we need to not get so carried away honoring the dead that we fo…

It's ironic- it would seem to be RMS who is getting carried away. A great man has died, and all RMS can think about is what this means for the Free Software movement? To me, this discredits him more than anything I have ever heard him say. Software is not more important than life. Disclaimer: Actively avoids Apple products

>Software is not more important than life. //

How about freedom? Is freedom from, for example, capitalist overlords more important than life?

People give their lives for freedom all the time.

>A great man has died, and all RMS can think about is what this means for the Free Software movement? //

Meh. I don't see the problem with someone who didn't know Steve Jobs personally simply addressing how a change in leadership of Apple Computers affects him and his causes.

Mountains out of mole hills if you ask me.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#196

Post by orblivion »

Radim wrote: post #156
orblivion wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, RMS is part Fred Phelps, but also part Jesus Christ because he sortof started this whole thing, if my understanding is correct. Just like you got to respect Steve Jobs' accomplishments despite his own personal failings, I think (granted to a lesser extent) we gotta hand it to RMS, despite being a tactless fanatic, his moral compass always steers us toward the ideal for Free Software. And I should note…

I think (granted to a lesser extent) we gotta hand it to RMS Why "to a lesser extent"? I'm honestly curious because from my outsider's perspective (being affiliated with neither Apple nor FSF), RMS is vastly more admirable than CEO of a for-profit company. The ability to cater to customers and sell them expensive products is precious and certainly good for the shareholders. And, to a lesser degree, even for the custo…

I don't know that people worship him just out of love of his products, but in more of a sort of hero worship. Here's a guy who had an uncompromising vision that nobody appreciated until he was proven right, and changed the world as a result. It's something we all want to see in ourselves.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#197

Post by orblivion »

raganwald wrote: post #188
orblivion wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Jobs would say anything bad about Stallman if Stallman died first. Because unlike Steve, in Steve's words (vis a vis Bill Gates) Stallman has no taste.

Actually, Stallman DOES have taste. He lacks a design aesthetic, but that is not synonymous with taste. Taste is about having an internally consistent means of making choices. The reason people say Microsoft had no taste is that they never said no, they bolted any old thing onto the side of Windows, there never really has been a sense that Windows is this and this but not that. Stallman has an extremel sharp sense of…

I wasn't even talking about aesthetics. I was talking about the sort of taste it takes to say "no" to expressing your opinion in an entirely frank manner at certain times.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#198

Post by [deleted] »

rwmj wrote: post #147
microtonal wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is completely distasteful, and representative of actions that caused me to slowly change from being an FSF associate member to believing that FSF is a threat to free software rather than an asset. Of course, RMS is not speaking for the FSF here, but there in recent years there is a history of missteps (Emacs virgins) and childish campaigns (Windows 7 sinds, Bad Vista, etc.) associated with the FSF. It seems th…

You've got to be reading a different RMS posting from the one I'm reading. It's certainly not "completely distasteful". As for the rest of your reply, I don't see how it relates to this. For reference, this is the RMS posting I'm reading: http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_20...

[deleted]

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#199

Post by Locke1689 »

0x12 wrote: post #151
aaronmorey wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a microcosm of a problem I've seen in the open source area in general... a preference for code over people. Open source software won't take over by being 1.86x faster and using a totally sweet heap sort algorithm. I'm a geek and I find that kind of thing interesting at an intellectual level, but it doesn't make me want to spend an entire Saturday trying to get Linux to recognize my sound card. "Normal…

> but it doesn't make me want to spend an entire Saturday trying to get Linux to recognize my sound card. Stuff like that is FUD though, linux sound support is pretty good these days and the amount and variety of devices supported dwarfs the best the commercial world has to offer. In general, Linux support of legacy devices is amazing. Newly minted hardware without a factory supported driver is a different kettle of…

Newly minted hardware without a factory supported driver is a different kettle of fish but you can't really blame the Linux driver writers for that, they need information to work with and if manufacturers are not going to supply that info it needs to be painstakingly recovered, which is not always possible and almost always incomplete to some extent.

Who cares? It doesn't work. When I buy an Apple laptop I know all the hardware works. That's it. There is no blame to Linux devs (I've counted as one at times). This is the real world -- I'm not giving out consolation prizes to software that almost works.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#200

Post by [deleted] »

rimantas wrote: post #125
Produce wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He already does. The only difference in the perceived quality is the learning curve. Learn the *nix way and you will be enlightened. Learn the Apple way and you will remain ignorant (but have lots of time for shopping, cos math is so boring, right?).

Apple way? You mean the one where OS is unix? The one which comes with perl, php, python, ruby, etc? The one which comes with fee Grapher app?

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